Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

[mkt]

Frank really ushered in the era of cardio. Not to say he’s the first cardio machine, but this fight was like THE moment when everyone realized the importance of cardio. Specifically Tito. That fight turned him into a champ.

Fond memories for sure.

Yes, both that fight and Maurice Smith (who trained with Frank) vs. Mark Coleman. Coleman kept taking Smith down but started gassing, and eventually they stood more where Smith landed a bunch of leg kicks and outstruck him, winning the decision.

 

[mkt]

2nd and 3rd ones? .... im almost half inclined to agree. 2nd was an early stoppage and 3rd a gentle breeze would ko ken, add up some other fights of him being a wuss against royce as an example, it looks bad to say the least.

I'm not sure about the Ken-Tito fights, but you have to remember Ken was well over 40 in two of those fights (while Tito was pretty much at his peak). Ken had a lot injuries from both his early MMA days and pro wrestling...then he came back to MMA after it had seriously evolved for about 5 years. On top of that, he was more comfortable fighting around 230-240, but Tito refused to fight him at HW. He pretty much had the deck stacked against him in every way. Watch Ken's first fight with Severn to see how well he grappled against a 260-pound former D1 wrestler. I'd like to see that version of Ken vs. Tito at HW.

Royce clearly kneed Ken in the groin in their last fight. The ref should've have paused it and let Ken recover. Afterwards Royce and the Gracies talked about how they liked old-school fights when there were no rules (except there still were). But Renzo cried like a baby when Frank used "illegal" knees against him....so they were clearly inconsistent.

 

[Badger67]

I'm not sure about the Ken-Tito fights, but you have to remember Ken was well over 40 in two of those fights (while Tito was pretty much at his peak). Ken had a lot injuries from both his early MMA days and pro wrestling...then he came back to MMA after it had seriously evolved for about 5 years. On top of that, he was more comfortable fighting around 230-240, but Tito refused to fight him at HW. He pretty much had the deck stacked against him in every way. Watch Ken's first fight with Severn to see how well he grappled against a 260-pound former D1 wrestler. I'd like to see that version of Ken vs. Tito at HW.

Royce clearly kneed Ken in the groin in their last fight. The ref should've have paused it and let Ken recover. Afterwards Royce and the Gracies talked about how they liked old-school fights when there were no rules (except there still were). But Renzo cried like a baby when Frank used "illegal" knees against him....so they were clearly inconsistent.

The shot barely hit ken in the nads and he folded like my ex gymnast gf. I have taken far worse from bigger sparring partners and dont stop the sesh; you cant rely on what the ref sees or doesnt see, he knows this and just wanted to go wahhh wahhh.

Ken has a lot of fishy moments against rich, royce 3, some scraps in japan, tito 2 was early stoppage but tito 3 was awk. At some point after tito 1 and don frye, ken didnt even remotely look like even a microcosm of a normal fighter.

 

[mkt]

The shot barely hit ken in the nads and he folded like my ex gymnast gf. I have taken far worse from bigger sparring partners and dont stop the sesh; you cant rely on what the ref sees or doesnt see, he knows this and just wanted to go wahhh wahhh.

Ken has a lot of fishy moments against rich, royce 3, some scraps in japan, tito 2 was early stoppage but tito 3 was awk. At some point after tito 1 and don frye, ken didnt even remotely look like even a microcosm of a normal fighter.

Nope. It was a very hard and clear shot. Any normal man would've been affected. The ref should've stopped it.

 

[Badger67]

Nope. It was a very hard and clear shot. Any normal man would've been affected. The ref should've stopped it.

Cup on, barely touched. Wah wah. Watch it from the other angle. He didnt get kharitonov'd.

 

[mkt]

Cup on, barely touched. Wah wah. Watch it from the other angle. He didnt get kharitonov'd.

Gotta love these low-T, low-IQ keyboard warriors on here...especially nancy boys from Canada! I'm sure you would've taken the shot with ease then proceeded to take out an armed Navy Seal team.

 

[Bullitt68]

2nd and 3rd ones? .... im almost half inclined to agree. 2nd was an early stoppage and 3rd a gentle breeze would ko ken, add up some other fights of him being a wuss against royce as an example, it looks bad to say the least.

YES THANK YOU

I'm not sure about the Ken-Tito fights, but you have to remember Ken was well over 40 in two of those fights (while Tito was pretty much at his peak). Ken had a lot injuries from both his early MMA days and pro wrestling...then he came back to MMA after it had seriously evolved for about 5 years.

As perhaps the biggest Ken Shamrock fan on this site, I'd love nothing more than to believe that Ken didn't really lose to Tito three times...but he did. Tito didn't need Ken to intentionally lose to him at that point in his career. Ken's body was shot and his chin was gone. No more taking monster shots on the chin from roid monster boxer Don Frye. Not only did Rich Franklin have Ken rocked by blowing on him from inside the guard at the TUF 1 finale before then knocking his head around like a speed bag, but then cute little Kazushi Sakuraba turned Ken's lights out with one punch at PRIDE 30. Tito flash KOing Ken with his nasty elbows on the ground shouldn't be hard to accept. At that point, I'm sad to say, a strong breeze would've had Ken on rubber legs.

Watch Ken's first fight with Severn to see how well he grappled against a 260-pound former D1 wrestler. I'd like to see that version of Ken vs. Tito at HW.

Oh, man, a prime 225-pound Ken Shamrock versus Tito at HW would've been such a different fight. The dude who locked horns with the 260-pound Severn, mauled the 240-pound Brian Johnston, and picked up and slammed the 270-pound Kimo? Prime Ken manhandles Tito worse than Randy did.

Royce clearly kneed Ken in the groin in their last fight. The ref should've have paused it and let Ken recover. Afterwards Royce and the Gracies talked about how they liked old-school fights when there were no rules (except there still were). But Renzo cried like a baby when Frank used "illegal" knees against him....so they were clearly inconsistent.

The Gracies are tremendous hypocrites. And they're habitual rule-breakers. Rickson made such a big deal about all of the rules for his fight with Funaki and then fucking opens the fight by going into the clinch and kneeing Funaki in the balls

 

[Badger67]

Gotta love these low-T, low-IQ keyboard warriors on here...especially nancy boys from Canada! I'm sure you would've taken the shot with ease then proceeded to take out an armed Navy Seal team.

Ugh, No, but ive taken worse than that and continued sparring. Hughes took worse from trigg who hits harder than royce could dream, and won. Ken straight up became a man looking for exits and being sus, especially after blowing all his money.

 

[savemgs]

Most definitely, they can’t not acknowledge him as he pretty much kept the lights on for the ufc for a good while!

So was Ken Shamrock.

 

[Deleted member 359865]

So was Ken Shamrock.

Yeah but Ken was on the losing end so they don’t really have to highlight him outside of being the guy Tito beat up. Despite this they still give him shine for being a pioneer, however Frank really was the man before Tito and his legacy is largely ignored.