Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

[mkt]

Jeff Blatnick is the most underrated commentator ever. Bas Rutten is the best fighter commentator ever in my book, while Jeff Blatnick is the best non-fighter commentator. Granted, like Joe coming from TKD and then learning MT and BJJ, Blatnick of course comes from a wrestling background, so it's not like MMA was completely foreign to him. But still, he wasn't a fighter yet he loved the sport and was both a true student and fan of the game, and that always came through on the mic.

I agree. Considering how new UFC and NHB (as it was called then) were, Blatnick did a great job--learning as we went (except for wrestling, which he knew well).

 

[Achilles00]

I agree. Considering how new UFC and NHB (as it was called then) were, Blatnick did a great job--learning as we went (except for wrestling, which he knew well).

RIP Blatnick. His enthusiasm was always palpable and genuine, and he definitely tried to study the game and explain to the audience what they were seeing.

 

[Bullitt68]

I did overstate.
I agree about his catch wrestling style as opposed to BJJ but those skills were more effective under hybrid wrestling rule set than modern MMA imo
I dont think they translated as well vs Lober, Sinosic or a green Horn, despite the tap.

Agreed. Frank's learning curve with catch wrestling was fucking steep. First he had to go through Allan Goes in Pancrase, which marked the first time he experienced elite BJJ and GNP (albeit of the open hand variety). He survived that fight by getting a draw after responding to Goes' kimura or RNC (I forget what he forced Frank to use a rope escape with) with a nasty heel hook that forced Goes to use a rope escape (IIRC Goes' ankle was seriously fucked up from that heel hook). Then he had to deal with Lober, an ordeal he didn't survive. He had to take the loss there. By the time that he got to Horn, like I said, I think that he was skilled enough and experienced enough to where he was more just playing it real loose and less getting put through the ringer. But I definitely agree that it's not the most effective style of grappling when you remove rope escapes and add punches, elbows, knees, and kicks on the ground, hence Frank's need to adapt and evolve. As you pointed out:

Guy Mezger style could be more effective than Shamrock from '99 in current environment imo, even if Frank a more skilled catch wrestler, in a similar way Okami could be a more efective MMA fighter than the great Japanese shooters from back in the day.

Mezger's style was definitely "safer" if not more effective. And beyond styles and just talking about individuals, Mezger had the supreme advantage of not just being a catch wrestler but a legit wrestler wrestler. He might have the most underrated TDD in the history of MMA. We all know the sprawl-and-brawl legends like Rizzo, Igor, Chuck, and Cro Cop, but Mezger had some phenomenal TDD, great balance and hand-fighting. Frank, by contrast, always had pretty suspect wrestling. He was strong as fuck, so he could always just throw a Bas Rutten or slam an Igor Zinoviev. But he had no real wrestling to speak of and practically no TDD.

To connect back to the topic of this thread, Frank's gameplan against Tito, while brilliant, was also necessary: He couldn't have sprawled-and-brawled. He didn't have the TDD to even put a dent in Tito's wrestling offense. He'd evolved more by this time than in his early Pancrase days, of course, but never in his career was Frank stonewalling wrestling offenses. More often than not, he was like Bas: He'd either knock you out on the feet or tap you on the ground, but if you had halfway decent wrestling, you were going to be the one to dictate whether the fight was going to be on the feet or on the ground.

Yuki Kondo, namely...

Don't even try and tell me...

Don't even try...

Please tell me that you're joking. I know that this is Sherdog and it's full of crazies, but I can't tell if you're being funny or being crazy. Do you really think that Frank literally getting kicked out of the ring was a dive?

I agree. Considering how new UFC and NHB (as it was called then) were, Blatnick did a great job--learning as we went (except for wrestling, which he knew well).

RIP Blatnick. His enthusiasm was always palpable and genuine, and he definitely tried to study the game and explain to the audience what they were seeing.

QFT. If you guys (or any of the rest of you guys in this thread) care, I'm an academic by trade who writes nerdy shit on movies and martial arts and I wrote a historical piece on MMA in which I tip the hat to Blatnick for how important an ambassador he was for the sport.

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2...martial-arts-between-culture-media-and-sport/

 

[Buff]

Please tell me that you're joking. I know that this is Sherdog and it's full of crazies, but I can't tell if you're being funny or being crazy. Do you really think that Frank literally getting kicked out of the ring was a dive?

A lot of people were saying it at the time... Certainly worked out well for Pancrase having Yuki replace the old Japanese guard like Funaki apart from him losing his next fight... It was also handy that padded mat was right there in the only part of the ring that didn't have photographers or ring techs around it too.

Why not man? A lot of Pancrase fights were fishy/blatantly rigged, and I'm a huge fan of the old stuff. Leglocks in thigh high boots will never get old...

Also, he lost his next few fights, and looked mostly terrible against named opposition... Its realy hard to believe that Frank Shamrock, one of the all time greats with an iron chin got punked like that by a very average fighter so spectacularly without being in on it somehow.

 

[mkt]

Agreed. Frank's learning curve with catch wrestling was fucking steep. First he had to go through Allan Goes in Pancrase, which marked the first time he experienced elite BJJ and GNP (albeit of the open hand variety). He survived that fight by getting a draw after responding to Goes' kimura or RNC (I forget what he forced Frank to use a rope escape with) with a nasty heel hook that forced Goes to use a rope escape (IIRC Goes' ankle was seriously fucked up from that heel hook). Then he had to deal with Lober, an ordeal he didn't survive.
/

Frank doing so well against Goes always amazed me. At that time, Frank had at most 1 year of grappling training with Ken, while Goes began studying BJJ at age 7. On paper, Goes should've dominated. As for Lober, Frank destroyed him in the rematch. It's the first fight I remember where someone made their opponent stand back up so they could dish out more punishment on the feet. And Frank had plenty of skills to grapple with Lober if he wanted--but he wanted to make a statement.

 

[mkt]

A lot of people were saying it at the time... Certainly worked out well for Pancrase having Yuki replace the old Japanese guard like Funaki apart from him losing his next fight... It was also handy that padded mat was right there in the only part of the ring that didn't have photographers or ring techs around it too.

Why not man? A lot of Pancrase fights were fishy/blatantly rigged, and I'm a huge fan of the old stuff. Leglocks in thigh high boots will never get old...

Also, he lost his next few fights, and looked mostly terrible against named opposition... Its realy hard to believe that Frank Shamrock, one of the all time greats with an iron chin got punked like that by a very average fighter so spectacularly without being in on it somehow.

I also wonder how Ken Shamrock got submitted by Suzuki in 2 minutes AFTER Ken went to a 36-minute draw with Royce in his previous fight...and a 33-minute draw with Oleg Taktarov (great submission artist) just a few months after facing Suzuki. To me, it was either rigged or Ken/Suzuki were told to wildly go after submissions until someone was caught. Ken's Pancrase match with Matt Hume was quite odd as well.

 

[Bullitt68]

A lot of people were saying it at the time

Like who?

Certainly worked out well for Pancrase having Yuki replace the old Japanese guard like Funaki apart from him losing his next fight... It was also handy that padded mat was right there in the only part of the ring that didn't have photographers or ring techs around it too.

I really hope that you're trolling. Aside from the facts that Frank landed on the floor, not a padded mat, and that that wasn't even the first time that Frank had gone through the ropes (he famously tackled Bas Rutten through the ropes in their third fight), Kondo didn't "replace the old Japanese guard" like a scripted WWF storyline where they let a new guy get the title. He came in and established himself as one of the new top guys. Although after beating Frank, he actually lost his next three fights. Not exactly a smart way to script the old guard's replacement's rise to the top by having him drop three consecutive fights.

In reality, Frank was at a crossroads in his career. His head wasn't really in it and he was slacking off in training. He talked about how around the time that he started dropping fights in Pancrase, it was because he knew that he didn't have a future there, especially since the brass started treating him differently after Ken's falling out with them and his leaving Pancrase. He also talked about how he wasn't training as hard and went on a "beer and oatmeal" diet, gaining weight and losing speed.

In short, Frank was in a bad spot and Kondo was new to the game and hungry. The result: Frank got steamrolled by a young hungry lion.

A lot of Pancrase fights were fishy/blatantly rigged

I've been debunking Pancrase "theories" on here for more than 15 years now. Please tell me all the fights that you think were "blatantly rigged." We can discuss the ones that you find "fishy" later. And I'll tell you now: If you list more than 5 or 6 fights then you're wrong.

Its realy hard to believe that Frank Shamrock, one of the all time greats with an iron chin got punked like that by a very average fighter so spectacularly without being in on it somehow.

See above. It's actually very easy to believe it. Aside from you not knowing much about what was going on with Frank at the time, it also doesn't help that you're under the impression that Kondo was just an average schmo and not one of the elite Pancrase guys who went into that fight with a 7-0-1 record and who in his first 10 years of competition would put together a Pancrase record of 42-9-6.

Frank doing so well against Goes always amazed me. At that time, Frank had at most 1 year of grappling training with Ken, while Goes began studying BJJ at age 7. On paper, Goes should've dominated.

No question Frank took to fighting like a fish to water. But considering that Ken is my all-time favorite fighter, my favorite part of Frank's fight with Goes is actually Ken's cornering. If I had to pick one fight to showcase how important a good corner can be, I'd pick that fight without a second's hesitation, because without Ken in his corner, Frank would've lost that fight. Plain and simple. When Frank had nothing left in the tank, the clock winding down and behind a point to Goes, it was Ken in his corner practically willing him to continue and shouting for him to get that heel hook. It was Ken's energy and encouragement that kept Frank pushing until the bitter end of that classic war.



Not just one of the best Pancrase fights (if not the best) but just one of the all-time great MMA fights in history.

As for Lober, Frank destroyed him in the rematch. It's the first fight I remember where someone made their opponent stand back up so they could dish out more punishment on the feet. And Frank had plenty of skills to grapple with Lober if he wanted--but he wanted to make a statement.

Oh yeah. That was Frank's redemption. And honestly, had he rematched Kondo in the UFC, it probably would've been similar. Frank by no means became Cro Cop with his striking, but he developed into a striker more than capable of hanging with Kondo on the feet, and on the ground with full-on GNP, he likely would've had his way with Kondo on the mat, too. Kondo was incredibly skilled and tough as nails - the dude fought Wanderlei in PRIDE and Josh Barnett and Semmy Schilt in Pancrase, he had no fear - but the Frank that owned the UFC, with his head screwed on right and his all-around improved skill-set, he would've avenged that loss, too.

I also wonder how Ken Shamrock got submitted by Suzuki in 2 minutes AFTER Ken went to a 36-minute draw with Royce in his previous fight...and a 33-minute draw with Oleg Taktarov (great submission artist) just a few months after facing Suzuki. To me, it was either rigged or Ken/Suzuki were told to wildly go after submissions until someone was caught. Ken's Pancrase match with Matt Hume was quite odd as well.

Those two Ken losses, as well as Funaki and Suzuki's match, are the only three absolutely 100% these were worked fights. Ken's fight with Hume was worked because Hume got injured and didn't want to fight Ken less than 100%, however he was still good enough to put on a show and since he had to withdraw so close to the event he decided to still give the fans some of their money's worth and so they did that work. As for the second fight against Suzuki, that was what caused Ken's falling out with the Pancrase brass and his eventual departure from the org.

Though initially the Pancrase brass liked Ken repping their org in the UFC, they quickly started to dislike Ken risking their reputation by fighting in the UFC. When he became the Pancrase champ, things basically became untenable for him. They didn't want their champion to lose to someone outside of Pancrase, but Ken wanted to compete in both Pancrase and the UFC. Initially, after Ken won the King of Pancrase tournament and became the first King of Pancrase, they immediately asked him to drop his title if he had plans to go after the UFC Superfight title. They first asked him to drop his title to Bas before rematching Royce, but Ken was insulted by that twice over: First, because he'd already beaten Bas once before, and second, because Bas wasn't Japanese. Out of respect, if Ken was going to give his title away to anybody, it'd be to the legendary Japanese founders of Pancrase, either Funaki or Suzuki. But a foreigner he'd already crushed? Ken was so pissed that that's why he went out and mauled Bas in a minute with that nasty kneebar that had Bas howling in pain. Then, ahead of his fight with Dan Severn, they again wanted him to drop the title, and that was it for Ken. He knew that they'd never stop hounding him, that they'd never actually support his UFC career, and so he agreed to drop the title to Suzuki. After that, Ken's relationship with Pancrase soured and he only fought three more times there, all against lower level guys nowhere near title contention. And his last fight against Takahashi was a snoozefest his head clearly wasn't in, especially when you consider that their first fight is the only fight that actually gives Frank/Goes competition for my #1 Pancrase fight of all-time, just a barn-burner with Takahashi throwing everything he had at Ken but Ken outmuscling, outworking, and ultimately outlasting Takahashi en route to a slick heel hook finish.

 

[Buff]

Like who?



I really hope that you're trolling. Aside from the facts that Frank landed on the floor, not a padded mat, and that that wasn't even the first time that Frank had gone through the ropes (he famously tackled Bas Rutten through the ropes in their third fight), Kondo didn't "replace the old Japanese guard" like a scripted WWF storyline where they let a new guy get the title. He came in and established himself as one of the new top guys. Although after beating Frank, he actually lost his next three fights. Not exactly a smart way to script the old guard's replacement's rise to the top by having him drop three consecutive fights.

In reality, Frank was at a crossroads in his career. His head wasn't really in it and he was slacking off in training. He talked about how around the time that he started dropping fights in Pancrase, it was because he knew that he didn't have a future there, especially since the brass started treating him differently after Ken's falling out with them and his leaving Pancrase. He also talked about how he wasn't training as hard and went on a "beer and oatmeal" diet, gaining weight and losing speed.

In short, Frank was in a bad spot and Kondo was new to the game and hungry. The result: Frank got steamrolled by a young hungry lion.



I've been debunking Pancrase "theories" on here for more than 15 years now. Please tell me all the fights that you think were "blatantly rigged." We can discuss the ones that you find "fishy" later. And I'll tell you now: If you list more than 5 or 6 fights then you're wrong.



See above. It's actually very easy to believe it. Aside from you not knowing much about what was going on with Frank at the time, it also doesn't help that you're under the impression that Kondo was just an average schmo and not one of the elite Pancrase guys who went into that fight with a 7-0-1 record and who in his first 10 years of competition would put together a Pancrase record of 42-9-6.



No question Frank took to fighting like a fish to water. But considering that Ken is my all-time favorite fighter, my favorite part of Frank's fight with Goes is actually Ken's cornering. If I had to pick one fight to showcase how important a good corner can be, I'd pick that fight without a second's hesitation, because without Ken in his corner, Frank would've lost that fight. Plain and simple. When Frank had nothing left in the tank, the clock winding down and behind a point to Goes, it was Ken in his corner practically willing him to continue and shouting for him to get that heel hook. It was Ken's energy and encouragement that kept Frank pushing until the bitter end of that classic war.



Not just one of the best Pancrase fights (if not the best) but just one of the all-time great MMA fights in history.



Oh yeah. That was Frank's redemption. And honestly, had he rematched Kondo in the UFC, it probably would've been similar. Frank by no means became Cro Cop with his striking, but he developed into a striker more than capable of hanging with Kondo on the feet, and on the ground with full-on GNP, he likely would've had his way with Kondo on the mat, too. Kondo was incredibly skilled and tough as nails - the dude fought Wanderlei in PRIDE and Josh Barnett and Semmy Schilt in Pancrase, he had no fear - but the Frank that owned the UFC, with his head screwed on right and his all-around improved skill-set, he would've avenged that loss, too.



Those two Ken losses, as well as Funaki and Suzuki's match, are the only three absolutely 100% these were worked fights. Ken's fight with Hume was worked because Hume got injured and didn't want to fight Ken less than 100%, however he was still good enough to put on a show and since he had to withdraw so close to the event he decided to still give the fans some of their money's worth and so they did that work. As for the second fight against Suzuki, that was what caused Ken's falling out with the Pancrase brass and his eventual departure from the org.

Though initially the Pancrase brass liked Ken repping their org in the UFC, they quickly started to dislike Ken risking their reputation by fighting in the UFC. When he became the Pancrase champ, things basically became untenable for him. They didn't want their champion to lose to someone outside of Pancrase, but Ken wanted to compete in both Pancrase and the UFC. Initially, after Ken won the King of Pancrase tournament and became the first King of Pancrase, they immediately asked him to drop his title if he had plans to go after the UFC Superfight title. They first asked him to drop his title to Bas before rematching Royce, but Ken was insulted by that twice over: First, because he'd already beaten Bas once before, and second, because Bas wasn't Japanese. Out of respect, if Ken was going to give his title away to anybody, it'd be to the legendary Japanese founders of Pancrase, either Funaki or Suzuki. But a foreigner he'd already crushed? Ken was so pissed that that's why he went out and mauled Bas in a minute with that nasty kneebar that had Bas howling in pain. Then, ahead of his fight with Dan Severn, they again wanted him to drop the title, and that was it for Ken. He knew that they'd never stop hounding him, that they'd never actually support his UFC career, and so he agreed to drop the title to Suzuki. After that, Ken's relationship with Pancrase soured and he only fought three more times there, all against lower level guys nowhere near title contention. And his last fight against Takahashi was a snoozefest his head clearly wasn't in, especially when you consider that their first fight is the only fight that actually gives Frank/Goes competition for my #1 Pancrase fight of all-time, just a barn-burner with Takahashi throwing everything he had at Ken but Ken outmuscling, outworking, and ultimately outlasting Takahashi en route to a slick heel hook finish.

I'm on a phone so apologies for not going through this all piece by piece... Obviously you know a lot about Pancrase. I only know a bit about Pancrase.

That said, I don't see it how you see it. I know what was going on with Frank, and I think he took a payday against someone they were hoping to build up that got beaten in his next 3 fights...

He also got beaten decisively by various fighters, including getting annihilated by Tito Ortiz just a year after Tito lost to Frank... He lost to Kanehara ffs. Thats not a fighter good fighters lose to..
Wanderlei stomped him silly, Josh choked him in a really mean way... I never rated him the moment he left Pancrase. He wasn't the right size.

I wanted him to be good. He didn't end up being too good. He was OK, he wasn't awful, but he wasn't as good as you're claiming he was. He was a journeyman. Crished a lot of cans, padded a lot of records... Maybe he even could have been,but the divisions hadn't all.been discovered back then.

Anyway, I'm.emjiyinh reading your posts, they're very informative... That said, again, you're talking about "only having 3 GUARANTEED fixed fights" by the guy's brother under similar (and not similar) circumstances professionally at around e the same time in the same org vs the new young tearaway... And I watch too many movies for thinking this? I'll try to think some more tomorrow.

Also, the "floor" loos very soft.

Shit, maybe Yuki Kondo did kick Frank so hard in the head he knocked him completely unconscious, despite Bas Rutten having never landed anything close to him like that previously... Maybe it wasn't choreographed by pro wrestling promotors from Japan, the 2nd home of pro wrestling... I just have too many alarm bells ringing about certain coincidences.

 

[Glove]

Like who?



I really hope that you're trolling. Aside from the facts that Frank landed on the floor, not a padded mat, and that that wasn't even the first time that Frank had gone through the ropes (he famously tackled Bas Rutten through the ropes in their third fight), Kondo didn't "replace the old Japanese guard" like a scripted WWF storyline where they let a new guy get the title. He came in and established himself as one of the new top guys. Although after beating Frank, he actually lost his next three fights. Not exactly a smart way to script the old guard's replacement's rise to the top by having him drop three consecutive fights.

Found some additional information for you about the Shamrock/Kondo match, its from the book "The Ultimate Guide To Preventing And Treating Mma Injuries" by Johnathan Gelber

 

[Bullitt68]

I think he took a payday against someone they were hoping to build up that got beaten in his next 3 fights...

He also got beaten decisively by various fighters, including getting annihilated by Tito Ortiz just a year after Tito lost to Frank... He lost to Kanehara ffs. Thats not a fighter good fighters lose to.

First, a lot of fighters have lost decisively to a lot of fighters. That's not a mark against anyone. Second, your MMAth doesn't prove anything. Frank also lost to John Lober, to whom he never should've lost; GSP lost to Serra, to whom he never should've lost; Pat Miletich lost to Jutaro Nakao, to whom he never should've lost; Matt Hughes lost to Dennis Hallman twice, to whom he never should've lost even once. You get my point. Third, Kondo didn't get "annihilated" by Tito. He smashed him with a flying knee that nearly knocked him out and then on the ground Tito got him in a neck crank and Kondo couldn't escape. The fight didn't even last two minutes but in those two minutes Kondo the "not a good fighter" nearly knocked out the champ. Fourth, Kondo actually beat Kanehara...twice.

I wanted him to be good. He didn't end up being too good. He was OK, he wasn't awful, but he wasn't as good as you're claiming he was. He was a journeyman. Crished a lot of cans, padded a lot of records... Maybe he even could have been,but the divisions hadn't all.been discovered back then.

You're oscillating not only between judging Kondo's Pancrase career and his overall MMA career, but also between judging early MMA and contemporary MMA. It's resulting in a distorted picture of Kondo and a failure to assess his skills in their proper historical context. But if Kondo's no big deal in your book, it is what it is.

That said, again, you're talking about "only having 3 GUARANTEED fixed fights" by the guy's brother under similar (and not similar) circumstances professionally at around e the same time in the same org vs the new young tearaway... And I watch too many movies for thinking this?

Ken trained with Funaki and Suzuki and was the first Pancrase champ. He was a made man. He was in the inner sanctum with Funaki and Suzuki, the co-founders, and the Pancrase brass. No fighters below Funaki, Suzuki, and Ken were let in on the goings-on regarding works. Plenty of people have gone on record saying that they were never even approached to work or throw a fight, including Ken's Lion's Den guys. And those same people always talk about how it was really just an issue at the top with the likes of Funaki, Suzuki, and Ken. Lastly and most importantly, carrying was far more prevalent than works or dives, but even that was something that only applied to Funaki and Suzuki.

So yes, when you only have three for sure worked fights - which is right on par with the early days of the UFC and PRIDE, both of which had worked fights but neither of which are impugned as frequently or as easily as people impugn Pancrase for whatever reason - and when they all involve the same three people, to casually talk about how everyone was doing it and it was happening all the time is erroneous.

I'll try to think some more tomorrow.

Also, the "floor" loos very soft.

You're out of your mind, Buff. That's a hard fall on a hard floor. Wrestling rings also look fun and bouncy, but ask any pro wrestlers if it's fun taking bumps on those fuckers.

I just have too many alarm bells ringing about certain coincidences.

Those aren't alarm bells. They're prejudices. You're looking at the entire org through biased glasses, and in the words of the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, it's never occurred to you to take them off. I'm here to tell you: You should take them off.

View attachment 909844

Found some additional information for you about the Shamrock/Kondo match, its from the book "The Ultimate Guide To Preventing And Treating Mma Injuries" by Johnathan Gelber

 

[dmwalking]

Frank really ushered in the era of cardio. Not to say he’s the first cardio machine, but this fight was like THE moment when everyone realized the importance of cardio. Specifically Tito. That fight turned him into a champ.

Fond memories for sure.

 

[pankrat]

Yuki Kondo, namely...

Don't even try and tell me...

Don't even try...

wow you are waaay off on this one

 

[VitorReem]

I’m convinced Ken vs Tito was rigged af

 

[pankrat]

He lost to Kanehara ffs. Thats not a fighter good fighters lose to..

First, a lot of fighters have lost decisively to a lot of fighters. That's not a mark against anyone. Fourth, Kondo actually beat Kanehara...twice.
.

All this Buff nonsense has already been exposed well enough but just wanted to say that Kanehara was far from a bad fighter. A solid case for the most underrated ever, victim of the classic fight finder analysis we often see around these boards, and his losses to Kondo have absolutely no relevance given the point in time they took place.

Kanehara - who was supposed to take on Conan Silveira in the Ultimate Japan of '97 instead of Sakuraba - was initially regarded as the finest of the young shoot-style lions who emerged in the pro wrestling scene in the early 90s, and the greatest talent to come out of Rings behind Tamura.

During 1998-2001, Kanehara was certainly one of the best WW sized fighters in the planet and legitimate challenger to anybody who fought for the UFC WW belt around that ime. As a matter of fact, he took UFC champions/tittle contenders Pat Miletich, Jeremy Horn and Matt Hughes to competitive decisions and KTFO Menne, so we dont need to speculate about it.

Kanehara's 2002-2005 run in Pride is easily the most criminal match-making ever made in the history of the sport. The fact that this natural LW-WW was able to get up from bed after going through such row of killers is impressive enough.

 

[savemgs]

Did not read but Frank Shamrock owned Tito the fact that he’s not recognized by the UFC in the same light as Tito has always been sore spot.

Tito is still recognized?

 

[JustBleed69]

Frank was for sure ahead of his time.

 

[Buff]

Man there's like 2-3 really good posts that would take me a long time to reply to, and I'm fighting a losing battle.

View attachment 909844

Found some additional information for you about the Shamrock/Kondo match, its from the book "The Ultimate Guide To Preventing And Treating Mma Injuries" by Johnathan Gelber

This is actually the most convincing thing I've read though.

I think me having prejudices is true... I dont trust a lot of things in general, especially when it comes to money and promotion.

I don't think Kondo was particularly good, and, while I think it is true that Kanehara had the worst run of opponents in during Pride fighting memory, he lost to every one of the ones he was supposed to lose to, taking some almighty beatings in the process. That did taint my view of him.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, or looking too deeply - I've never regarded it a legitimate incident, but there was a lot of other stuff going on at the time, and others here have more precise knowledge of certain things so I can't complete in here.

I still think that there's a lot of idealism and naivety when it comes to combat sports, especially around that time... The money was abysmal in most cases and fans had minimal idea as to what they were seeing... Gamesmanship definitely came into effect, "carrying", as has been pointed out - fighters deciding which minjte to end the fights and so on against weslaker opponent - obviously not a perfect science... A lot of sketchy fighters went through Pancrase... Its not a bad thing to say it, it was just the times.

 

[Badger67]

I’m convinced Ken vs Tito was rigged af

2nd and 3rd ones? .... im almost half inclined to agree. 2nd was an early stoppage and 3rd a gentle breeze would ko ken, add up some other fights of him being a wuss against royce as an example, it looks bad to say the least.

 

[VitorReem]

2nd and 3rd ones? .... im almost half inclined to agree. 2nd was an early stoppage and 3rd a gentle breeze would ko ken, add up some other fights of him being a wuss against royce as an example, it looks bad to say the least.

YES THANK YOU

 

[Deleted member 359865]

Tito is still recognized?

Most definitely, they can’t not acknowledge him as he pretty much kept the lights on for the ufc for a good while!