Retrospective 001: Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz

Frank was the man. His body type reminds me of Eddie Guerrero all of a sudden. Swole shoulders, traps and pecs.

keep it coming paisan. Love this kinda content. Thanks.
 
Langstarr said:
Frank was the man. His body type reminds me of Eddie Guerrero all of a sudden. Swole shoulders, traps and pecs.

keep it coming paisan. Love this kinda content. Thanks.
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Thanks man , will do your added to the taglist for future segments
 
Fioretti said:
Frank had some good ass fights in the UFC. I was surprised to see Tito gas and tap to strikes. He ruled that division for a while though and carried the promotion through some tough times after losing to Frank. I think he was a little better on the mic back then too.
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I tend to think that at this stage we hadnt REALLY seen MMA evolve past the era of the power wrestler, we'd seen guys like Frank, Rizzo, Igor, Bas etc evolve who were good enough to avoid being finished on the ground whilst having threatening standup but still I think for those guys to win you tended to need the big wrestler to show a weakness in cardio in very long fights, if they could hold them down for the full lenght they could still generally win and with knees on the ground still threaten.

I think Herring was a little further along that evolution as he was becoming more active on the ground, someone like Erikson was having to work harder to control him and gassed earlier as a result but still waiting for cardio to become a factor was part of it. Really I think it was the appearance of people like Nog that really signaled the end, someone who was good enough on the ground not just to out last the wrestler but to actually threaten him.
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022 I've decided to take more of my posting here on the Sherdog more seriously ,less about the back and forth and more about the actual sport or sport related content.Thats not to say I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light of key fight in MMA's history.Along with these threads I will be making another series breaking down major fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective as i hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality and how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters,the first one being UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal i will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022 keep your eyes open.

For the hardcores this fight should be well known but for the newer fans i pick this fight to start off what i hope will be a re-occuring thread series for me because a lot of new fans seem to think all the best fighters exist now only and the old guys couldn't hang with todays fighters. Although there is some merit to this when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply the man had it all a solid stand up game,great wrestling both offensively and defensively ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP and Jon Jones and the kicker being he had all this in the NINETIES.This fight was to be a passing of ages or guard with the steam rolling young fierce Tito Ortiz representing the new age of strong ,huge wrestler base fighters but this "older lion" (get it ex lions den) wasn't quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999 look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was , he was clearly the better striker then Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos and clinch strikes all while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well no wasted energy, kept Tito in guard and even swept him all while never stopping to attack from the bottom.Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Another key thing to notice the size difference , Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used it but Frank having the Fight IQ advantage decided not to fight strength with strength a losing battle for sure something Ken Shamrock would try and paid dearly for, instead Frank used technique we clearly see Frank working back to feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today which meant less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved in certain elements of the game since the 1990's , it's however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who were really timeless in their skill sets Frank Shamrock I think embodies for me what these Retrospective Threads hope to represent as I believe you transport this Frank Shamrock to the modern day MW or LHW division and there is little doubt in my mind he would be top 5 or even champion, not bad for a guy from the 1990's.


Feedback: Please let me know if you liked this kind of posting and any ideas for future series episodes i will tag you in future posts.
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This was a great read and beautiful breakdown. I’d love to see more of this on the ‘dawg. Please keep up the great work! And please tag me on your next write up
 
Speedy1 said:
This was a great read and beautiful breakdown. I’d love to see more of this on the ‘dawg. Please keep up the great work! And please tag me on your next write up
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Your on it , any topic suggestions for future segments?

Thank you very much ..im mostly a cellphone only poster here this was my first keyboard typed on a computer thread haha..looks like it wont be my last cheers
 
moreorless87 said:
I tend to think that at this stage we hadnt REALLY seen MMA evolve past the era of the power wrestler, we'd seen guys like Frank, Rizzo, Igor, Bas etc evolve who were good enough to avoid being finished on the ground whilst having threatening standup but still I think for those guys to win you tended to need the big wrestler to show a weakness in cardio in very long fights, if they could hold them down for the full lenght they could still generally win and with knees on the ground still threaten.

I think Herring was a little further along that evolution as he was becoming more active on the ground, someone like Erikson was having to work harder to control him and gassed earlier as a result but still waiting for cardio to become a factor was part of it. Really I think it was the appearance of people like Nog that really signaled the end, someone who was good enough on the ground not just to out last the wrestler but to actually threaten him.
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It's funny you mention these things, as I believe the new UFC rules (no knees to the head on the ground) hindered wrestlers at this time. More specifically - they hindered Tito a bunch. He was fucking brutal with that shit in the earlier days. Marco Ruas was pretty evolved/well-rounded in my opinion. One of my early favorites. Vitor was pretty well-rounded too, but didn't have to use his ground game much. He did use defensive wrestling and his raw(?) strength a lot to keep it standing and blitz mofos though. Sakurai and Oleg were well-rounded too, among others. There were definitely a few, and those seemed to be the guys with great success! Borat style.
 
moreorless87 said:
I tend to think that at this stage we hadnt REALLY seen MMA evolve past the era of the power wrestler, we'd seen guys like Frank, Rizzo, Igor, Bas etc evolve who were good enough to avoid being finished on the ground whilst having threatening standup but still I think for those guys to win you tended to need the big wrestler to show a weakness in cardio in very long fights, if they could hold them down for the full lenght they could still generally win and with knees on the ground still threaten.

I think Herring was a little further along that evolution as he was becoming more active on the ground, someone like Erikson was having to work harder to control him and gassed earlier as a result but still waiting for cardio to become a factor was part of it. Really I think it was the appearance of people like Nog that really signaled the end, someone who was good enough on the ground not just to out last the wrestler but to actually threaten him.
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The interesting layer to Frank Shamrock was though that maybe some of the others you mentioned besides maybe Bas... Was the fight IQ..this was the age where we start to see the smarter fighter emerge..the rock em.sock em brawler days of a Tank Abbott were gone those guys were figured out.

Frank showed with alittle use of tactics you can overcome a much bigger and stronger opponents while still playing their game you didnt have to run from the ground game at all costs which alot of guys thought was the thing to do then when facing these power based wrestlers hell some fighters still think that now it was a big part of Khabibs great success the panic guys would get in to get back up or avoid him at all costs would just fall right into Khabibs game he did most of his damage as you tried to get to back up he would wait for those moments... A much different approach was used by Shamrock its worth it for young fighters to take note of this.
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Your on it , any topic suggestions for future segments?

Thank you very much ..im mostly a cellphone only poster here this was my first keyboard typed on a computer thread haha..looks like it wont be my last cheers
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I wouldn't mind a segment on one of the 3 HW goliaths Kerr,Coleman,or Randleman . They all had a fun career to watch with some legendary moments for all 3.Though Kerr is the only one with a documentary out, Coleman and Randleman could easily have an amazing documentary put together.
 
IMPmmath said:
I wouldn't mind a segment on one of the 3 HW goliaths Kerr,Coleman,or Randleman . They all had a fun career to watch with some legendary moments for all 3.Though Kerr is the only one with a documentary out, Coleman and Randleman could easily have an amazing documentary put together.
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Considering the coverage Mark Kerr has had already im more incline to maybe do one on Mark Coleman or Randleman... Or both of those two as two separate ones..One as a retrospective on American wrestling's impact on MMA and birth of powerful GNP with Mark Coleman being front and center..and maybe one about the Genetic freaks of MMA... with Randleman being a pioneer on that front..i got some ideas floating with this one.

Thanks for the input
 
Fioretti said:
It's funny you mention these things, as I believe the new UFC rules (no knees to the head on the ground) hindered wrestlers at this time. More specifically - they hindered Tito a bunch. He was fucking brutal with that shit in the earlier days. Marco Ruas was pretty evolved/well-rounded in my opinion. One of my early favorites. Vitor was pretty well-rounded too, but didn't have to use his ground game much. He did use defensive wrestling and his raw(?) strength a lot to keep it standing and blitz mofos though. Sakurai and Oleg were well-rounded too, among others. There were definitely a few, and those seemed to be the guys with great success! Borat style.
Click to expand...

Knees did I think make the "outlast the wrestler" gameplan potentially more dangerous to pull off as if you ended up in the wrong position even a superior sub grappler who could stifle regular GnP could be threatened by them.

Vitor was I'd agree one of the first hints at someone who would move beyond "survive on your back and wait for cardio to become an issue" although he also never had to face one of the real monster wrestlers and generally I think had a few too many mental weaknesses and technical holes in his game to pull it off.

I would add as well that Randleman was probably the finale evolution of the "super wrestler", not quite as big as some of the previous ones but had the advantage than it wasnt easy to outlast him along with being a bit less vunerable to striking. He beat Rizzo and really he should have beaten Bas as well and it was only a rival wrestler in Randy who stopped him .
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Considering the coverage Mark Kerr has had already im more incline to maybe do one on Mark Coleman or Randleman... Or both of those two as two separate ones..One as a retrospective on American wrestling's impact on MMA and birth of powerful GNP with Mark Coleman being front and center..and maybe one about the Genetic freaks of MMA... with Randleman being a pioneer on that front..i got some ideas floating with this one.

Thanks for the input
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Those both sound great. I liked Bas's reaction when he saw Kevin's vertical when entering the cage against Maurice Smith.The back and forth banter between the 2 post fight when they knew they'd be meeting next was great too.

As far as Frank/Tito that was such a huge fight for the UFC especially with PRIDE beginning to takeover.Around the same time as that fight PRIDE had put on Kerr/Vovchanchyn which was also a monumental fight!!
 
moreorless87 said:
No knees did I think make the "outlast the wrestler" gameplan potentially more dangerous to pull off as if you ended up in the wrong position even a superior sub grappler who could stifle regular GnP could be threatened by them.

Vitor was I'd agree one of the first hints at someone who would move beyond "survive on your back and wait for cardio to become an issue" although he also never had to face one of the real monster wrestlers and generally I think had a few too many mental weaknesses and technical holes in his game to pull it off.

I would add as well that Randleman was probably the finale evolution of the "super wrestler", not quite as big as some of the previous ones but had the advantage than it wasnt easy to outlast him along with being a bit less vunerable to striking. He beat Rizzo and really he should have beaten Bas as well and it was only a rival wrestler in Randy who stopped him .
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Randlemans win over Pete Williams to win the belt in Japan after losing that controversial fight to Bas was huge.Coleman was so happy for him in the cage.
 
IMPmmath said:
Randlemans win over Pete Williams to win the belt in Japan after losing that controversial fight to Bas was huge.Coleman was so happy for him in the cage.
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Again I think Randleman getting the best of these guys did show that the "outlast the wrestler" gameplan of this era did depend on the wrestler showing cardio weakness. Really a lot of these guys there game was basically a good defensive guard shutting down the wrestlers ability to hurt them from top position.

That is why I'd put Heath Herring as a little different, he was still playing "outlast the wrestler" but he was helping it a long a bit more by showing more than a defensive guard being more active from his back forcing guys like Kerr and Erikson to work more as well as having more dangerous standup.
 
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Paolo Delutis said:
The freshness and the speed he had in the forth round was most impressive , when he flipped that switch it was like round 1 all over again it really showed without a doubt he had outsmarted Tito and the shot placement and choice of attack with that elbow again speaks to his high level...we dont even see guys throwing elbows from there today
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Been years since I watched this fight. Yeah gear or no gear, Frank's cardio was insane and the snap and explosion he still had in his punches late in the 4th when he stood up was crazy. Love his butterfly guard game and the constant attacks and sweep attempts off his back.

It's a crying shame we never saw this level out of Frank Shamrock again - he was only 26! Had MMA paid enough at the time, Frank could have had a run like Fedor and been MMA GOAT.
 
moreorless87 said:
Knees did I think make the "outlast the wrestler" gameplan potentially more dangerous to pull off as if you ended up in the wrong position even a superior sub grappler who could stifle regular GnP could be threatened by them.

Vitor was I'd agree one of the first hints at someone who would move beyond "survive on your back and wait for cardio to become an issue" although he also never had to face one of the real monster wrestlers and generally I think had a few too many mental weaknesses and technical holes in his game to pull it off.

I would add as well that Randleman was probably the finale evolution of the "super wrestler", not quite as big as some of the previous ones but had the advantage than it wasnt easy to outlast him along with being a bit less vunerable to striking. He beat Rizzo and really he should have beaten Bas as well and it was only a rival wrestler in Randy who stopped him .
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Vitor did get the diarrhea beat out of him by Randy while he was sick. Although, that was more from clinching, dirty boxing, and wearing him down. Not much wrestling. Come to think of it, we probably should include Randy in our grouping of evolved or well-rounded fighters, eh?
 
Fioretti said:
Vitor did get the diarrhea beat out of him by Randy while he was sick. Although, that was more from clinching, dirty boxing, and wearing him down. Not much wrestling. Come to think of it, we probably should include Randy in our grouping of evolved or well-rounded fighters, eh?
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Randy I spose is more evolving from the other direction, maybe not quite as good a pure wrestler as the other guys mentioned but a significantly better striker.
 
I would like to start off with editing your post, to make it more easily understood by a standard reader. You are either english second language, or haven't learned how to write in english. That said, I find your content to be valuable.

"Hello fight fans,

Since the beginning of 2022, I've decided to take my posting here on Sherdog more seriously. I would like to spend less time on the back and forth and more time discussing the actual sport of mixed martial arts. I am not saying I wont be busting hype trains or exposing fools, but I wanted to take some time on the cusp of another fight card this weekend to shine some light on key historical MMA fights. I will also be making another series breaking down important fights of upcoming fight cards from a coaching perspective. I hope to one day coach and would like to see how accurate my breakdowns are against reality. I would like to see how well my suggestions or coaching directives would work with said fighters. The first fight I will analyze/coach will be UFC 272 Colby v.s Masvidal. I will be releasing the break down post weigh in March 5th 2022, so keep your eyes open.

For the hardcore fan, Shamrock Vs Ortiz is a known fight, but for the newer fans, who think the older fighters couldn't compete, this is a gem. Although there is some merit to the idea that the fighter today have evolved, through updated coaching and training and a larger fan base, when your talking about the fighter Frank Shamrock this simply doesn't apply. The man had it all; a solid stand up game, great wrestling offense and defense ,submissions , ground and pound and a fight IQ to rival GSP. What made this even more impressive was he had all of these skills in the 1990's. Many pundits at the time believed this fight to be a "passing of the guard", where the young strong wrestler from California, Tito Ortiz, would easily manhandle the Old lion. The Old lion was not quite ready to be quiet.

For your viewing pleasure

(Also lmfao at the commentary back then at some points,we've come along way boys. Goldie trying his best out there the others guys were hard to listen to)

Things to Notice:

This fight was in 1999, look how complete of a fighter Frank Shamrock was. Frank Shamrock was clearly a better striker than Tito landing great leg kicks, boxing combos, and clinch strikes. Frank managed to keep this striking success while dealing with the takedowns by Tito quite well with little wasted energy. When taken down, Frank kept Tito in guard and even swept him and never stopped attempting to attack from the bottom. Many new age fighters could learn from Franks approach here on how to fight effectively from the bottom in MMA against larger wrestling based fighters.

Tito was huge compared to Frank and certainly used his size, but Frank had the Fight IQ advantage and decided not to fight strength with strength. Frank used technique, we clearly see Frank working back to his feet in the way we see many modern MMA fighters do today. Franks Technique resulted in less energy used and in the end made the difference as Tito tired over the rounds resulting in Franks win.


Conclusion:
There is no doubt MMA has grown and evolved since the 1990's. It is however important to take time and remember those fighters from the past who Pioneered skill sets such as Frank Shamrock. Frank Shamrock is the type of fighter I hope to discuss in my retrospective series because he had many of the skills of the modern day MW or LHW divisions fighters. In fact, there is little doubt in my mind Frank Shamrock would be top 5 or even champion today, not bad for a guy from the 1990's."

Now that I finished editing and can more clearly understand your intent... Frank was good, but the skills in the 90's were extremely dated in comparison to today. The wrestling was mostly a traditional blast double leg, Bas Rutten fought better off his back, the bjj defense was so weak in comparison today. I disagree man. That said, Frank was a pioneer who opened up the mind of many fights as to what MMA could be. That is why he is important in the history of MMA.

My Conclusion:
If you think Frank would be top 5 today with the skills he showed beating prime TITO... you are high.. he wouldn't be top 100... He got ragdolled for 20 minutes and didn't gas out... he would most likely get outwrestled by 170 pound Jorge Masvidal... who I know... is a striker..
 
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