Remember when frank mir said heavyweight sucks?

It bothers me how completely the HW division has abandoned submission grappling... like, entirely. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a HW submission victory in the UFC? That weakass arm triangle the Crochet Boss hit on Cardiac Arrest Mode Gianni? Maybe Werdum clowning Gus?You can't say that submissions aren't effective at HW when you look at all the success guys like Werdum, Nog, Mir and Fedor have had over the years with their sub-heavy styles, it's just that no HW's seem to be taking the time to learn even the most basic of submissions... hell, most can't even grapple, period!

If it wasn't for Oleynik there would be no real submission artists in the division right now and I personally don't view that as a sign of subs becoming irrelevant in MMA like Couture predicted a decade and change ago, but rather an inability to focus on a truly well-rounded game from the roly-poly division as a whole.
 
Khabib Khanate said:
But Mir is obviously right, are people really disagreeing with him? Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome HWs who are a joy to watch. Overeem is as skilled as anyone in the UFC(IIRC he has the highest striking accuracy in UFC history); Werdum is a top 5 BJJ player of all time with solid Muay Thai; DC is an Olympian in wrestling with good hands, great power, and a BJJ black belt and of course Stipe is one of the best to do it at HW and is very well rounded with good fight IQ.

However, the gist of Mir's statement is spot on and especially this part.

That's 100% true. I mean come on, name one HW fighter outside the top 10 that you think is a complete mixed martial artist, consistently in shape, and that you would say is a must see fighter. I don't think there is one, in fact the division is so shallow that every once in a while some bum level fighter breaks the top 10.

That never happens at LW where the division is so deep you get top level matfch ups outside the top 10 all the time.
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In fact most killers in lightweight are unranked.

Tsarukyan, Fiziev, Leonardo Santos, Ismagulov, Riddell, Moicano, mustafaev, Trinaldo, and Azaitar.
 
TRYHARD 2001 said:
It bothers me how completely the HW division has abandoned submission grappling... like, entirely. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a HW submission victory in the UFC? That weakass arm triangle the Crochet Boss hit on Cardiac Arrest Mode Gianni? Maybe Werdum clowning Gus?You can't say that submissions aren't effective at HW when you look at all the success guys like Werdum, Nog, Mir and Fedor have had over the years with their sub-heavy styles, it's just that no HW's seem to be taking the time to learn even the most basic of submissions... hell, most can't even grapple, period!

If it wasn't for Oleynik there would be no real submission artists in the division right now and I personally don't view that as a sign of subs becoming irrelevant in MMA like Couture predicted a decade and change ago, but rather an inability to focus on a truly well-rounded game from the roly-poly division as a whole.
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You see less submissions in part because guys DO focus on grappling more consistently than they did in the early 2000s overall. Guys are more consistently versed on the ground so fight ending submissions are less likely than fight ending striking at hw.
 
Heavyweight, as an entire division, has always been the least athletic and skilled division. That doesn't mean a less than skilled HW can't knock a LW, WW, MW, or LHW dead. Doesn't mean they can't rip off a smaller fighter's arm and beat him with it. They sure can and the best example currently is Francis as freak size and power trump many of the skillsets found with greater abundance and maturity at lower weight classes. I think as a rule 145 or 155 maybe the best weight classes in the world of MMA. If I had to place a percentage that measured how good heavyweights skillsets are relative to 155 I would say that HW, as a division, is approximately 80 to 85% as skilled. That ain't bad when you are likely over 6' 2" tall and weigh 250 plus. I'm not sure why everyone sees this a this tremendous knock on heavyweights. With that said, generally speaking, I dislike watching HW.
 
Khabib Khanate said:
That's why the veterans can stick around the top 10 so long, even as they slow down or their chin wears they're still often much more skilled than the young guns.
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Which has taken longer in this gen than in the previous 2, and Ngannou and Gane are in their 30's already as the new blood. Blaydes is the only young top guy. Unless great young talent comes along soon it's Blaydes and old guys, which would make the HW div the worst ever.
 
MCS said:
Which has taken longer in this gen than in the previous 2, and Ngannou and Gane are in their 30's already as the new blood. Blaydes is the only young top guy. Unless great young talent comes along soon it's Blaydes and old guys, which would make the HW div the worst ever.
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Earlier generations didn’t have many skilled older fighters because the sport was new. But you did have guys like randy who took up the sport late who still beat up younger guys into his mid 40s.
 
kflo said:
You see less submissions in part because guys DO focus on grappling more consistently than they did in the early 2000s overall. Guys are more consistently versed on the ground so fight ending submissions are less likely than fight ending striking at hw.
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hmmm...nah, it´s actually the opposite... & overall, more complex than that.
 
kflo said:
Nah. It’s not the opposite.

But sure, it’s complex too.
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Nah.
See:

> Evolution of the Scorin´Systems.
> Essential Turnin´points in NHB/MMA history : Rings/Pancrase.
 
kflo said:
You see less submissions in part because guys DO focus on grappling more consistently than they did in the early 2000s overall. Guys are more consistently versed on the ground so fight ending submissions are less likely than fight ending striking at hw.
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I gotta disagree with you on that one, man. You don't even see HW's attempting subs at all these days. They take the back and just try to punch while retaining the ride. No hooks, don't even look for the neck, just punch. It's the Rashad Evans approach to grappling, really (in 20+ UFC fights he never attempted a submission). There's a lot more to grappling than just subs obviously, but the offensive submission game is just completely lacking in the overwhelming majority of today's HW fighters.

If you look at the UFC HW Top 10 now and compare it to the MMA Top 10 of say 2003, the difference in grappling acumen is night and day, and it's to their detriment IMO.
 
It’s probably already been said a million times, but there are very few actual HW sized dudes. USADA cut all the middleweight roiders out of LHW/HW. It also makes no sense to fight MMA if you can play any other major sport.
 
sutherland said:
You seem like a small sad man, with little hope of ever touching a tittie other than ur mom's hoe sacks
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So small, you wouldn't even see me in the night.

Creepy_Furby_by_awright60.jpg
 
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