Red state voters support progressive policies

[superpunch]

Oh I know. It's frustrating to watch it happen in real time.

Trump: Hilary wants open borders.
Hilary: I do not want open borders.
Trump's base: Hilary wants open borders.

Well, you touched on it. Democrats will say they don't support illegal immigration then go and support sanctuary cities.

From a 2008 debate:
O’Reilly: "Are you going to crack down on the sanctuary cities?"
Clinton: "No, I’m not. And I’ll tell you why. … "

If you want to enforce immigration laws, having someone say they don't support illegal immigration and then support sanctuary cities probably feels like you're being fed bullshit. It's probably the same feeling of nonsense that liberals get when they think Trump is lying to them.

I actually would support amnesty for the 10 million illegals already here. I would take tolerance of illegal immigration past what even Hillary wants. But I don't like feeling like I'm being lied to in an elitist way, like they have no respect for my intellect. That's BS lawyer legalese speak right there.

 

[bad seed]

Are those really progressive issues?

It feels like some of those were laws in the past, but we're changed over time.

Marijuana used to be legal.
Minimum wage in the 60s had more buying power than today.
I am not sure where in the constitution it states fellow can't vote.

Besides, these initiatives seem rather libertarian. Look like people want people to decide.

then why has the GOP fought tooth and nail against all those issues for decades? The electorate has softened their resistance to them because years of Republican blockades have resulted in utter misery for millions of Americans who identify as conservative.

And the only one of those policies that could be interpreted as libertarian is marijuana legalization. And even there the groundwork was laid down by leftist progressives.

 

[Scerpi]

Are those really progressive issues?

It feels like some of those were laws in the past, but we're changed over time.

Marijuana used to be legal.
Minimum wage in the 60s had more buying power than today.
I am not sure where in the constitution it states fellow can't vote.

Besides, these initiatives seem rather libertarian. Look like people want people to decide.

I 100% agree... If people really looked at what they supported... They'd realize they're actually Libertarian.

The Republicans and Democrats are corrupted and bought and paid for anyway. We're mostly stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

It's amazing what can be done when actual policy and tangible solutions are on the table instead of social justice and identity BS.

I think more and more people are finding refuge in the middle when you have Cartoon Republicans battling Cartoon Democrats in the mass media every day. I'm a registered Libertarian and it feels good that at least some of our ideas are catching on.

 

[K1levelgrappler]

It comes down to how people actually weight the issues. For Trumpsters, all the policies discussed in the OP put together are a fraction as important as the caravan. Cultural issues reign supreme. Basically, there's no amount of shitty rightwing policy they won't tolerate as long as they get to stick to Muslims, Mexicans and transgenders.

 

[Seano]

There are plenty of issues that both sides would be able to come to the center with if we could abandon identity politics. Imagine if we had one year of our government actually working for us, opposed to dividing us.

 

[BangersAndSmash]

That's unfortunate. I think the GOP runs very effective smear campaigns, and I think a lot of Republican voters get too much information from memes. That is reflected on this forum.

But it's up to the Democrats to combat that by having an equally compelling message, and forcefully resisting the smears. I know it seems bizarre and hopeless sometimes though.

I spoke too soon. All of Florida's elections are in hard recount mode right now. Evidently the pro-weed democratic commissioner of Agriculture just pulled ahead by 600 votes.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/politics/broward-county-vote-counting-recount/index.html

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article221362645.html

 

[Seano]

It comes down to how people actually weight the issues. For Trumpsters, all the policies discussed in the OP put together are a fraction as important as the caravan. Cultural issues reign supreme. Basically, there's no amount of shitty rightwing policy they won't tolerate as long as they get to stick to Muslims, Mexicans and transgenders.

The caravan is simply an in your face symbol that our immigration system is broken. People didn't just suddenly get fired up over this one caravan. Its been a matter of nation wide debate for a while now, well before this caravan formed. Thats basically the "muslim and mexican" thing you're struggling to say there, making veiled claims of racism. We want security in our country and I'd like an explanation of why you believe I'm not entitled to that as a tax paying citizen on this country.

And the transgender thing- No. This is an issue 100% created by the left. What makes the right angry about this shit is wasting our time with such ridiculous nonsense as whether boys should use a boys bathroom, instead of actual important issues facing the country.

You need to point that finger back at yourself.

 

[superpunch]

I 100% agree... If people really looked at what they supported... They'd realize they're actually Libertarian.

The Republicans and Democrats are corrupted and bought and paid for anyway. We're mostly stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.

No way.

Most people support k-12 public education. Most people support public fire departments. Most people support public police departments. Most people support the Civil Rights Act. Most people support making whites only stores illegal. Most people think it should be illegal to racially discriminate against minorities in housing and loans. Most Americans support single payer healthcare. Most Americans support 100% government funded college tuition. Most Americans support a minimum wage. Etc.

If most people supported libertarian policies, libertarians would get more than .5% of the vote. Everyone knows the libertarian party exists. They don't get votes because libertarians are a fringe set of kooky ideological beliefs.

 

[nac386]

Well, you touched on it. Democrats will say they don't support illegal immigration then go and support sanctuary cities.

From a 2008 debate:
O’Reilly: "Are you going to crack down on the sanctuary cities?"
Clinton: "No, I’m not. And I’ll tell you why. … "

If you want to enforce immigration laws, having someone say they don't support illegal immigration and then support sanctuary cities probably feels like you're being fed bullshit. It's probably the same feeling of nonsense that liberals get when they think Trump is lying to them.

I think part of that problem though is that the other side has demonized Sanctuary cities to such a degree that they do not even want to hear why somebody would hold a different stance on it. For example, what was the rest of Clinton's quote there? I bet a lot of people stopped listening to her right where you ended that quote anyways.

I think that is an issue that needs an honest debate, but instead it just kinda seems like mud-flinging from both sides whenever it is brought up.

I understand what you are saying though about politicians seeming to hold conflicting ideas, and then not explaining themselves very well. That certainly comes across like pandering or lying. I think Hilary Clinton ran into some issues because she does not come across as sincere.

I actually would support amnesty for the 10 million illegals already here. I would take tolerance of illegal immigration past what even Hillary wants. But I don't like feeling like I'm being lied to in an elitist way, like they have no respect for my intellect. That's BS lawyer legalese speak right there.

I'm in the same boat as you as far as immigration goes, and I agree that there is a huge issue with the way politicians like Hilary Clinton communicate. Insincerity can lose a lot of votes. That is one of the reasons why I think Trump's shooting from the hip approach worked for a lot of people. Even if he was inaccurate (that bothers me) they believed he was at least being sincere in what he thought (even if it was wrong). That's not the way I operate, but I see why that works with some people.

 

[bad seed]

I 100% agree... If people really looked at what they supported... They'd realize they're actually Libertarian.

The Republicans and Democrats are corrupted and bought and paid for anyway. We're mostly stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.

Do you understand what libertarianism is? Every libertarian party vehemently opposes socialized medicine, minimum wage, and any sort of state solution to social problems. Stop this ridiculous "both parties" bullshit. Only one of those parties is malleable to turning actually progressive. The other resists because it is a fundamental nature of the party to oppose those policies.

 

[japman40]

The conflation of the party with fringe elements on the left (who mostly hate Democrats, BTW) is not a result of the action of Democrats. The GOP knows that it's policy agenda is very unpopular, which is why they run exclusively on identity politics (among other strategies--such as lying about their policies, making it harder for people to vote, and sowing cynicism), and part of that effort is getting gullible people to believe nonsense like this: "They’re all in on this notion of a 100 year ruling coalition based on demographics alone."

This x1000. The whole caravan thing is an example of what jack just said. Fox news just goes a great job of making people believe the fringe is the left or supported by most of the left, and they base their programming on it.

For the fox news viewers on here, watch fox for the next week and let me know how much they focus on policy compared to either blaming democrats, calling them crazy in one way or another, or equating them to fringe radicals.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I understand what you are saying though about politicians seeming to hold conflicting ideas, and then not explaining themselves very well. That certainly comes across like pandering or lying. I think Hilary Clinton ran into some issues because she does not come across as sincere.

I'm in the same boat as you as far as immigration goes, and I agree that there is a huge issue with the way politicians like Hilary Clinton communicate. Insincerity can lose a lot of votes. That is one of the reasons why I think Trump's shooting from the hip approach worked for a lot of people. Even if he was inaccurate (that bothers me) they believed he was at least being sincere in what he thought (even if it was wrong). That's not the way I operate, but I see why that works with some people.

I think you pretty much have it, but you're not putting it together. Clinton was not willing to just say politician bullshit when she knew that there was nuance on the issue. Lying with conviction comes across much more "sincere" than making a real effort to get facts right and to communicate your true position and give fair attention to all relevant issues.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

well...ya
that's partly b/c many (if not most tbh) people that identify as Republican or Conservative are actually LIbertarians with much more liberal social views

 

[nac386]

I think you pretty much have it, but you're not putting it together. Clinton was not willing to just say politician bullshit when she knew that there was nuance on the issue. Lying with conviction comes across much more "sincere" than making a real effort to get facts right and to communicate your true position and give fair attention to all relevant issues.

That's true too. Lying with enthusiasm tricks a lot of people into believing you're sincere.

 

[japman40]

Are those really progressive issues?

It feels like some of those were laws in the past, but we're changed over time.

Marijuana used to be legal.
Minimum wage in the 60s had more buying power than today.
I am not sure where in the constitution it states fellow can't vote.

Besides, these initiatives seem rather libertarian. Look like people want people to decide.

Yes those are all progressive issues. Look at the platform of the progressive/ justice democrats. Some of their ideals do mesh with libertarians, mostly just on social issues though.

 

[luckyshot]

Look for Republican controlled statehouses to start trying to amend state constitutions to make ballot initiatives more difficult.

They will blame it on Democrats.

 

[japman40]

The caravan is simply an in your face symbol that our immigration system is broken. People didn't just suddenly get fired up over this one caravan. Its been a matter of nation wide debate for a while now, well before this caravan formed. Thats basically the "muslim and mexican" thing you're struggling to say there, making veiled claims of racism. We want security in our country and I'd like an explanation of why you believe I'm not entitled to that as a tax paying citizen on this country.

And the transgender thing- No. This is an issue 100% created by the left. What makes the right angry about this shit is wasting our time with such ridiculous nonsense as whether boys should use a boys bathroom, instead of actual important issues facing the country.

You need to point that finger back at yourself.

We do have security in this country, what do you think we have customs, border patrol, ins before, and a wall. Also add to the fact that illegal immigration was trending down since 2007, and illegals commit less crime per capita then u.s citizens.

Republicans just use this issue and blow it out of proportion to pander to their base and rile them up. Does immigration law need to be fixed? Most definitely, but the way Republicans and fox news goes about it is just fear mongering

 

[japman40]

The issue I've seen here is that media and elected officials turned voters into cultural conservatives.

There's a thread here in this forum that ask what people think is the number one problem we face in this country and most conservatives here went with cultural issues, as oppose to the liberals here who went with policy issues.

It's easier to manipulate your base when you turn politics into cultural and identity problems that need to be fixed as oppose to policies

 

[woodguyatl]

Are those really progressive issues?

It feels like some of those were laws in the past, but we're changed over time.

Marijuana used to be legal.
Minimum wage in the 60s had more buying power than today.
I am not sure where in the constitution it states fellow can't vote.

Besides, these initiatives seem rather libertarian. Look like people want people to decide.

Several also voted to expand medicaid even though their governor's promised not to when Obamacare was enacted.