Economy "Radical" Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[panamaican]

I'm all for options and people being able to buy electric cars, but I don't like the government mandating it.

And as long as there is still demand for gas powered cars, their will be a manufacturer and as long as people need gas to run those cars, there will gas stations. Maybe 50 years from now it'll be the complete opposite of what we have now.. very few gas stations but a shit ton of charging stations. Options are good.

I mean, OE's stopped making parts for 1969 Mustangs and Camaros a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that you can't buy them aftermarket still.

I'm not a big fan of the government mandating it but I find it hard to distinguish something like this from other air quality legislation.

I don't think it will take 50 years either. Find someone using an original iPhone. Still saving things on floppy discs. Still use their tape players to listen to music. They're out there but not in any quantity that matters. I recently that they're not even putting CD players in the majority of the new cars anymore...and you can still buy CDs, lol.

 

[curryjunkie]

I'm not a big fan of the government mandating it but I find it hard to distinguish something like this from other air quality legislation.

I don't think it will take 50 years either. Find someone using an original iPhone. Still saving things on floppy discs. Still use their tape players to listen to music. They're out there but not in any quantity that matters. I recently that they're not even putting CD players in the majority of the new cars anymore...and you can still buy CDs, lol.

in 15-20 years 50% of the cars will be EV im guessing,more car sharing in cities, light public transport, would take a lot of cars off the road, ev delivery trucks on local routes, ev taxis... more energy efficient houses, buildings, infastructure is just as important, if they made the largest container ships more efficient it would help

 

[panamaican]

Getting off fossile fuels in 12 years is insane.

The US doesn’t have the infrastructure to supply that many electric cars, imagine the amount of electric energy you need to make available all over the country. Plus the battery technology used nowadays doesn’t scale well. It uses rare materials and the performance leaves much to be desired.

Doesn't have or can't have?

Because she specifically said that we'd have to push our technological development. She didn't make any pretenses that we're capable right now of doing this.

It was 16 years between the Wright brothers first flight and the 1st transatlantic flight. It was 8 years between the time Kennedy said we're going to the moon and NASA landing a man on the moon. So, if you tell me 12 years is insane, it's going to require a little more than just pointing out that we can't do it in the immediate future.

 

[Blowing Dixie]

Why? I wanted to see what folks thought about no more fossil fuels in 12 years . . . and how it might impact them.

It would mean the Western world would no longer be held hostage by OPEC, who right now use that leverage to flood Europe with jihadis, so I'm all for stopping the use of carbon fuels. Not to mention it's better for the environment.

The progressive tax rate is questionable though. I think that if you pay a higher amount of your wage in taxes than other people, then you should also receive more back from society to reflect that. Quicker healtcare, quick-lane on public roads, fuck do I know, but what I do know is that it needs to pay off or high-taxed people will just move abroad when there is a progressive tax rate. That phenomenon is very common in the welfare states in Europe and it's not a good thing for those nations that their wealthy businessmen flee the countries because of unjust taxes.

 

[Deleted member 484047]

Doesn't have or can't have?

Because she specifically said that we'd have to push our technological development. She didn't make any pretenses that we're capable right now of doing this.

It was 16 years between the Wright brothers first flight and the 1st transatlantic flight. It was 8 years between the time Kennedy said we're going to the moon and NASA landing a man on the moon. So, if you tell me 12 years is insane, it's going to require a little more than just pointing out that we can't do it in the immediate future.

I'd have to do the math again when I get home (which I gladly will if youd like) but the last time I looked into it even if starting today every car and truck sold in the US was electric it would still take 15-20 years to become the lions share of vehicles on the road, let alone being the only vehicles. And that's under optimum conditions, with people actually buying them instead of sticking with used gas vehicles.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

You sure about that? Have you done the research?

You can make anything to run on an electric engine, but the amount of batteries would be excessive and they would be worse than ICE in terms of working efficiency. You can't just recharge your battery like you can refill your tank, it takes a lot more time, so you need to keep your tractors out of work and farmers usually work during daylight so every minute counts.
You could, of course, use biodiesel.
But then, how sustainable would that be? Biodiesel already contributes a significant percentage of fuel use in many countries but converting to 100% Biodiesel is something else entirely, you would need to turn many fields into oil producing crops, either displacing food production or converting forest or natural pastures into farmland, using more fertilizers etc
That's all considering current technology, of course if Elon Musk develops some battery that can be charged in 1 minute or people are able to make algae biodiesel viable or something else it could change everything.
I started researching biodiesel and algae back in 2009 when I entered college, it was all the rage back then, supposedly 1 hectare of algae could produce 10x or more oil as soybeans, it turned out to be misleading.
https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Biofuels/Exxons-100m-Algae-Investment-Falls-Flat.html

Exxon Mobil Corp. (NYSE: XOM) is cutting its losses on algae biofuels after investing over $100 million only to find that it couldn’t achieve commercial viability.

Microalgae are basically small cells filled with oil, while a conventional land plant has a lot of other tissues and thus by weight a soy plant doesn't have such a high oil/mass ratio, but there is a reason for it. Conventional plants have roots, so they can grow on dirt, they have stems, so they can grow high and block light against weeds while capturing more sunlight and so on. So to grow algae you need to babysit them, you need to have a pool, you need to kill weed, you need to agitate you need to feed them light as they grow and block light to other algae etc.
The same goes for most other green technologies, they are good, doing R&D on them is important, but right now they can't surpass fossil fuels in all respects and you can't really predict when they will.
Also, a lot of green initiatives taken in developed countries are useless in a global context, for example, the US doesn't manufacture lead acid batteries anymore because they're afraid of lead, so they let China produce it and sell it to them. That's OK right? Fuck China, except they then pollute the oceans, burn coal causing worldwide global warming etc.
Solar panels, rare-earth minerals used in lots of electric appliances and electronics, lithium batteries, many of these are highly polluting or in limited supply too.

I'm rambling but my point is that it's not just an evil conspiracy by ExxonMobil and the Saudis to keep the world using oil, it involves a lot of scientific and engineering problems that we haven't solved it.

 

[zebby23]

You can make anything to run on an electric engine, but the amount of batteries would be excessive and they would be worse than ICE in terms of working efficiency. You can't just recharge your battery like you can refill your tank, it takes a lot more time, so you need to keep your tractors out of work and farmers usually work during daylight so every minute counts.
You could, of course, use biodiesel.
But then, how sustainable would that be? Biodiesel already contributes a significant percentage of fuel use in many countries but converting to 100% Biodiesel is something else entirely, you would need to turn many fields into oil producing crops, either displacing food production or converting forest or natural pastures into farmland, using more fertilizers etc
That's all considering current technology, of course if Elon Musk develops some battery that can be charged in 1 minute or people are able to make algae biodiesel viable or something else it could change everything.
I started researching biodiesel and algae back in 2009 when I entered college, it was all the rage back then, supposedly 1 hectare of algae could produce 10x or more oil as soybeans, it turned out to be misleading.
https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Biofuels/Exxons-100m-Algae-Investment-Falls-Flat.html

Microalgae are basically small cells filled with oil, while a conventional land plant has a lot of other tissues and thus by weight a soy plant doesn't have such a high oil/mass ratio, but there is a reason for it. Conventional plants have roots, so they can grow on dirt, they have stems, so they can grow high and block light against weeds while capturing more sunlight and so on. So to grow algae you need to babysit them, you need to have a pool, you need to kill weed, you need to agitate you need to feed them light as they grow and block light to other algae etc.
The same goes for most other green technologies, they are good, doing R&D on them is important, but right now they can't surpass fossil fuels in all respects and you can't really predict when they will.
Also, a lot of green initiatives taken in developed countries are useless in a global context, for example, the US doesn't manufacture lead acid batteries anymore because they're afraid of lead, so they let China produce it and sell it to them. That's OK right? Fuck China, except they then pollute the oceans, burn coal causing worldwide global warming etc.
Solar panels, rare-earth minerals used in lots of electric appliances and electronics, lithium batteries, many of these are highly polluting or in limited supply too.

I'm rambling but my point is that it's not just an evil conspiracy by ExxonMobil and the Saudis to keep the world using oil, it involves a lot of scientific and engineering problems that we haven't solved it.

I appreciate the knowledge. I would advocate going green where possible and using innovation to figure out how to get the bigger machines off fossil fuels. It’s America, we can do it.

Give Elon Musk the task

 

[panamaican]

Yea she embraced it. I don't necessarily consider that a good thing though.

12 years is 12 years though. There is a big difference between moving away from and removing, and in her case removing. Regardless of how ambitious you pushed this plan, there is a very strong likelihood that poor people would be unintentionally impacted. These are the things that need to be considered before championing a push, because once car purchases become middle class and up it would be too late to say "oops sorry I didn't mean to" for people of lesser income. Equally bad is the 70%. I think we all agree that taxes need to be increased, but that does not leave room for funding other important programs in the future through taxation. If you are stating "we can pay for the NGD by taxing the rich up to 70% to cover the costs", you will have a predictable dilemma in the future in more ways than one. If I can see it, and you yourself probably can see it, she should be able to, but I doubt she does.

No? I'm not into people saying electing their party members is the equivalent of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, her saying she didn't want to oppose Pelosi because too many white males were opposing at the time, comparing the migrants to Jews fleeing the Germans (her own tweet), her tons of "errors" she makes speaking that we attribute to just bloopers spoken under pressure (branches of government, unemployment rate, lets flip the seat Red, etc), her 40 trillion dollar platform that she couldn't even discuss how to apply or pay on a super left-friendly CNN interview, no detail in any of the plans she ever mentions beyond generalizations (tax them 70% to fund it, etc), etc, etc, etc. Lets not pretend that dance videos and expensive clothes are the only things people point to in their distaste for her.

If she had the same exactly everything, but was as thorough, specific, and definitive as some of the others on team blue she wouldn't get whipped as much. But she makes it too easy and is in the spotlight.

Half your post has nothing to do with her proposal. Which is why I said she seems to be the new whipping post. People don't like her so they're going to say everything she says is unworkable. If people won't intelligently evaluate something because it comes from her, well that points to a pretty big problem with them...not with her. Because it shows that they're not thinking logically, they're just defaulting to their emotional state related to her.

As for the proposal itself - poor people will be fine. The average American owns a new car for 6 years. The average car on the road is 12 years. Older cars will be grandfathered, new ones won't be made. As poor people enter the market for used cars, fewer and fewer options will be fossil fuels. In 12 years, the costs will be way down. Used cars will be cheaper because there will be newer models with better systems. Look at any 2019 car model and compare it's price to a 2013 model of the same car. A used Tesla 3 in 12 years isn't going to be $35k. A used Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf in 12 years won't be $30k. And that's assuming that low cost models don't come into existence between then and now.

The 70% is fine. She didn't specify 70% for this program exclusively but for the overall economy.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I appreciate the knowledge. I would advocate going green where possible and using innovation to figure out how to get the bigger machines off fossil fuels. It’s America, we can do it.

Give Elon Musk the task

If I had to propose something would be to invest massively in improved batteries or other form of saving energy. Tesla cars, for example, basically use a lot of 1$ batteries you can buy on ebay. If you had batteries that could be made cheaper, smaller/lighter, that didn't need lithium, electric would kill fossil fuels, but I don't know much about batteries, how that could be done.

 

[panamaican]

I'd have to do the math again when I get home (which I gladly will if youd like) but the last time I looked into it even if starting today every car and truck sold in the US was electric it would still take 15-20 years to become the lions share of vehicles on the road, let alone being the only vehicles. And that's under optimum conditions, with people actually buying them instead of sticking with used gas vehicles.

I'd like to see the math. Not because I disagree with you but because I'm curious how that is calculated.

Does your calculation consider an embargo on creating new gas vehicles? I'd hate to complicate your math but can you model it out with 0 new gas cars produced from today. 0 new gas cars produced starting in 8 years. And a declining rate of production over a 10 year window?

My imaginary check to your imaginary consulting firm is in the mail.

 

[deviake]

She continually makes me proud to have contributed money to her campaign.

 

[brackis1]

I don't think I've ever seen a more attractive political candidate. goddamn

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

I don't think I've ever seen a more attractive political candidate. goddamn

She got crazy eyes....crazy eyes dont lie.

 

[brackis1]

I appreciate the knowledge. I would advocate going green where possible and using innovation to figure out how to get the bigger machines off fossil fuels. It’s America, we can do it.

Give Elon Musk the task

God more Musk worship. The dude hasn't even figured out how to run his own companies; why the hell should we give him more projects?
Faith-based investment in tech like that is idiotic. There are TONS of smart people dying to devote their lives to various industries trying to solve these problems. Give them more funding.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

By then she would expect electric cars to cost significantly less, which is possible. Though that still wouldn't help the poor because significantly less could mean say, 15-20k instead 0f 40k, but many people can't afford that level of cost for a car either. She'd have to have a plan that would reduce a few purchase margins in order for those with little money to maintain their travel.

Cars are a luxury. I'm not sure what the price of ownership would be with a different fuel source but the main thing is to keep our environment healthy for future generations.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

I'm not a big fan of the government mandating it but I find it hard to distinguish something like this from other air quality legislation.

I don't think it will take 50 years either. Find someone using an original iPhone. Still saving things on floppy discs. Still use their tape players to listen to music. They're out there but not in any quantity that matters. I recently that they're not even putting CD players in the majority of the new cars anymore...and you can still buy CDs, lol.

IPhone technology becomes unusable. (Apple quits updating it)
floppy disk technology unusable.

My chevy will still be very usable in 20 years.

 

[Pessimystic]

This has been the mantra since at least as far back as Nixon. Sounds like more lip service to me.

 

[G-19]

Ocasio-Cortez is very attractive.

I’d have a debate about her oral any time, any place.

 

[ajccoming]

Maybe someone can clarify for me, and this is probably a dumb question but is she talking about eliminating fossil fuels only for cars, or is she talking about boats and planes as well?

 

[ShadowRun]

I'm not a big fan of the government mandating it but I find it hard to distinguish something like this from other air quality legislation.

I don't think it will take 50 years either. Find someone using an original iPhone. Still saving things on floppy discs. Still use their tape players to listen to music. They're out there but not in any quantity that matters. I recently that they're not even putting CD players in the majority of the new cars anymore...and you can still buy CDs, lol.

Bad comparsion more people needs cars compared to those things listed.