Race and gender swaps in movies and television

[MoparOrNoCar]

What about sports teams getting rid of cheerleaders for co-ed dance teams?

 

[90 50]

On some level I get the Idris Elba/Heimdall criticism, but on the other hand, they aren't really "Norse" gods, as in, they were born in Nordic lands, or created Nordic people. They are just worshipped by the Nordic people.

The Asgardia in the MCU, and the Asgardians are just basically aliens. I don't see why they can't be racially diverse.

I really like Idris. Would love to see him play Bond. After reading the Dark Tower series I wondered what they would do with Detta Walker. Of course the movie was a stinker and it'll never go anywhere. But there was so much racial tension in one of the books.

I liked the dark tower, could have been much much better, and it’s been over 20 years since I read it iirc. I thought Idris portrayal of the character was the best in the movie.

I’d like to see him play a “modern times 007, just don’t call him names bond

Never stated in the films of course and seems like a relatively minor detail, I actually felt with Asgard it helped to actually not just make it purely "techno Viking", giving it an element that was obviously different to that. It was never a big role but I felt he filled it well, gave a supporting character a lot of gravitas,

The big problem you have really is that Hollywood over the last decade or more has become totally obsessed with existing properties, seems like 90% of blockbusters take this form so I think you see some obvious lag in terms of diversity in the source material. That really means that some potential changes are going to be needed, its just I'd say a question of picking them well and not making entire films based on it as a gimmick ala Ghostbusters.

Sorry, I'm with TS on this.
I'm all for more actors from all races and both sexes. Great.
But why keep changing already established characters? Why can't a new black character be created and do well off its own merits? Why can't female leads be based on female leads rather than taking a character that was originally a man?
Idris Elba as Bond? Get your own 00 agent Idris, and make him great. Don't hijack 007.
Guy with wings from marvel? Why did he deserve to be the new Cap'n? Someone remind me what he did in the mcu that made him worthy of that? Don't care about it happening in the comics a few years back, that has nothing to do with mcu. You can literally delete all of falcons scenes from the mcu and it would not make one single plot/script inconsistency.

It shouldn't be about race, but by backing down to the pc screamers, and forcing character changes when it doesn't make sense it becomes about race.

For the record I am a white male. Not in the slightest bit racist but still find it hard to put up with many of the race issues created by people who supposedly are trying to correct it.

Should have been winter solder, without the wing suit Falcon is just a man, would get curb stomped without it. Makes ZERO sense.


In Norse Mythology, if I’m Not mistaken the Vikings are descendants of the gods, which helps explain why they are all Blonde and so so much Taller than those of other regions in the time period.

So yes, they “should” all be white and blonde. When I saw Idris in the first movie for the first time I was like “wtf is this shit” but through the series he’s grown on me and I enjoy his portrayal of the character.

The Black valkeri chick? If Idris hadn’t already “paved the way” for black asgardians it might have been harder to take. I thought she played that part exceptionally well however and I’m glad they cast her in it.

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

Or you could just call him James Bond since its make believe anyway

I think a lot of the whining about these castings is due to these fictional worlds becoming a new religion of sorts- the fans are in effect worshippers, and the canon is their bible. With the decline of religion in society, something else had to take up that segment of our brains and we foolishly chose to fill it with comic book and movie franchises.

As our posts in the GoT threads can attest, neither of us are immune to this either.

 

[90 50]

I like Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury even though I grew up watching the white Nick Fury in the cartoons. Probably because he was just a meh character to me in the first place and SLJ made him interesting.

I don't like the new Mary Jane of the MCU. Because MJ is such a major character who is so established in her appearance.

I wish they would just create new characters for representation of POC.

I think Glenn in The Walking Dead is a good example of POC representation done right. And probably why the actor is well liked in South Korea, whereas other Korean American actors are not.

In general I think it's just being done in a "for the sake of it" manner and not organically in a way that feels natural. More like the creatives patting themselves on the back and people in the SJW camp going "HELL YEAH ANOTHER W FOR US WE ARE MAKING HISTORY!" way.

If they changed an established male character to be Korean American I'd roll my eyes at it even though I belong to that demographic.

Mary Jane is supposed to be out of Parker’s league , and why he is so skeptical to go for her at first. After becoming Spider-Man he’s more in her league now.

The new chick doesn’t act or look or do anything like the original MJ, it’s a total character assassination.

Also, why why why does the new gen’s Parker only go for black girls? Make ONE of them black ok , fine but both?? Come on now.

Also I don’t know why Parker keeps getting cast as so small.

In the comics he’s not, and in the toys either. Today’s toys my kid has spider Man being made Like the 70’s and 80’s Spider-Man. Quite fucking muscular and taller than the last three Spider-Man characters.

So while we complain about the casting of Spider-Man’s side characters , why is there not more bitching about Parker himself?

 

[Threetrees]

I think a lot of the whining about these castings is due to these fictional worlds becoming a new religion of sorts- the fans are in effect worshippers, and the canon is their bible. With the decline of religion in society, something else had to take up that segment of our brains and we foolishly chose to fill it with comic book and movie franchises.

As our posts in the GoT threads can attest, neither of us are immune to this either.

For sure. But limit it to bitching among light hearted fans. And it's generally limited to things that suck about the story itself

Even complaints of white washing make no sense to me - in terms of the actual work itself. As long as the race of the character or gender doesn't ruin the internal consistency of the story who cares? It's an adaptation it doesn't have to be faithful, as long as its good

 

[90 50]

reality- old white guy beat up black guy

yet in the movie its a mexican beating up a white racist

Bad Ass (2012) - IMDb

I never watched because of that.

And I even have a “bad motherfucker” Tom slick t-shirt lol.

 

[JAEGERX]

the funniest swaps are when they have the upstanding citizen black folk being threatened by a white gang, or teaching manners to whites, super realistic

 

[CyberRubberDuck]

Is a studio more likely to back and fund guranteed titles/moneymakers like 007, or knockoff versions of them, with black characters? Are movie goers more likely to go watch "black versions" of the same character, or just wait for the "real" one to come out?

"Just create a new one" is a lot easier said than done.
Look at comic books. They have been around for like a 100 years. What new original ethnic character could you create today that wouldn't just be a black version of an already established white character? What power and storyline hasn't been done already by a white character?

It's the same with movies. There's only so many stories and characters you can create without doing overlap. And why would a movie studio waste money, or risk gambling on an unknown when they already have a guranteed moneymaker?

Black helmed films/stories weren't getting funded by big studios. I remember reading about studio execs having issues with casting a white female to costar alongside Will Smith in his movie 'Hitch' because they didn't think it would sell as well.
They didn't want to cast a black female lead alongside Smith, because then people think it's a "black movie", so they wont' watch it; and they didn't want to cast a white female lead alongside the black male lead because there would be people with issues with that.
We're not talking about 50 Cent in a romantic comedy with Reese Witherspoon. This is a Will Smith movie. In 2005. He's probably the most vanilla, famous Hollywood-friendly black actor out there, and this was an issue for him and a studio when he was about at his peak popularity.
https://www.today.com/popculture/was-race-issue-hitch-casting-wbna7019342

Studio execs/Hollywood has some set ideas/beliefs on what they think will and won't sell. And that results in minorities not getting parts for movies because the white guy is the safer bet. If you never challenge these beliefs, then things don't change.
Peele just did this with his movies "Get Out" and "Us". About 10 years ago, those movies wouldn't of gotten seen by the amount of people that saw them, and they would have just been classified as "black movies".

Ludicrous.
With that reasoning, we will never see anything new anyway, because it won't matter if new stuff comes out featuring white actors (which new stuff comes out all the time) because according to you basically what you're saying is anyone who isn't white has to hijack an already established character because creating a new black character (or any race except white) won't sell because its already been done before and can only be a copy of something that already exists.

That is just ridiculous.

 

[CyberRubberDuck]

In actual fact, your post is ridiculous in several ways.
You're also saying will Smith didn't want to make it a black film, yet that's ok to be like that, and it's ok to change a white character to a black character, but it's not ok to create a spin off of someone that already exists and make that spin off black. He has to be an already created, established and successful franchise, then you support other races taking the torch and living off it.
You are so single minded and your reasoning is laughable.

 

[ScarfaceJr]

The only "race" swaps that piss me off are the "race" swaps in history.
Iconoclasm & people holding on to an identity that they've stolen and wear as a garment to hide their true origins.

 

[nhbbear]

The idea that someone gives enough of a shit to write all this is mindboggling

Why?

First, I like to write, and it comes easy for me. The problem, as you pointed out, is writing too much, which I struggle with like Conan with a giant snake.

Second, if you have an idea or opinion, why not voice it completely, instead of just a few words a la the “lol/tkdr/emoji” generation?

Third, you as the potential reader, have the option to read my comments, or not.

Fourth, if you choose to read the comments, and take umbrage to something i wrote, then by all means, submit your opionbane we can have an intelligent discussion or argument. I wrote my thoughts, the ball is in your court.

 

[nhbbear]

I can't "like" this enough......you Fucking nailed it

Thanks. Like I said, I spent hours, hell, weeks reading all of these books only to have the movies change the characters and how I imagined them, into something i barely recognize. It’s not as if King did not provide enough description of the characters, or enough material to make a good movie, or even a large trilogy.

When i read the dark tower saga, I often thought about who could be the actor that played Roland, Eddie, Suz, Jake, the man in black-but never did I imagine that I would be seeing Roland as Idris Elba. It’s almost like someone read “the man in black” and mistook it for “the man is black.” Never.

 

[nhbbear]

On some level I get the Idris Elba/Heimdall criticism, but on the other hand, they aren't really "Norse" gods, as in, they were born in Nordic lands, or created Nordic people. They are just worshipped by the Nordic people.

The Asgardia in the MCU, and the Asgardians are just basically aliens. I don't see why they can't be racially diverse.

I actually really liked heimdall in those movies. He was a badass and I just kept waiting for him to fight. The rest of Thor’s crew were interesting enough, but at least two of them were fairly straightforward and stereotypical. If someone told you that Thor would have friends that fought by his side(source material aside), you would definitely expect the big bearded guy and the aggressive, and attractive woman that hung with the guys. You would also expect one to be a real snartass, but not necessarily the strongest fighter, as in the guy with the rapier, but I have always liked the guys with the unique weapons. And i also would have expected, and loved the idea of everyone having their own weapon and style-I have always been a big fan of every sidekick or character having their own weapon and style, be it a sword, axe, or some type of gun depending on the movie.

I still liked Elba as heimdall and would probably like him as bond as well, but I just don’t like Hollywood messing with the appearance of franchise or characters that that have a specific description thet you pictured while reading the source material.

When they do eventually cast Bond, they will likely just pick a few actors on the shirt list, and probably not even require them to audition. They will probably have a few people vote for, or voice their choice. But when considering the casting, they would never even consider an American actor because the role is a British man of action. Fans would lose their shit if the new Bond was not actually British no matter how good the accent could be perfected by a non-UK actor. It is a requirement of the role, but if not this new bond, their will be a black or female Bond in the next ten to fifteen years. I bet they would love to those “shocking and buzz generating” pick for the new bond.

 

[Hog-train]

I still remember that funny SJW outrage a few years ago when Gods of Egypt's cast consisted of mainly white people and everyone was outraged.

Shortly afterwards, new research came out that the Ancient Egyptians were not only not black, but weren't even related to the people living in modern day Egypt.

Turns out the pharoahs shared more genetic similarities to Caucasians than Sub-Saharan Africans lmao

Arabs are Caucasians FYI. Caucasian is not always "white."

The problem with that movie is that all the Egyptians are like lily white European people. Completely stupid.

 

[eighterumg5]

Thanks. Like I said, I spent hours, hell, weeks reading all of these books only to have the movies change the characters and how I imagined them, into something i barely recognize. It’s not as if King did not provide enough description of the characters, or enough material to make a good movie, or even a large trilogy.

When i read the dark tower saga, I often thought about who could be the actor that played Roland, Eddie, Suz, Jake, the man in black-but never did I imagine that I would be seeing Roland as Idris Elba. It’s almost like someone read “the man in black” and mistook it for “the man is black.” Never.

yea that movie was comically bad. Just out of curiosity who do you think what have been a good cast. I think Jake was fairly decent. Oh man that scene where Roland is fighting beside his dad against Walter......like wtf was that!! I'd love to see a movie of Rolands youth and his boys taking on the big coffin hunters.
The movie The Stand should have been the blueprint...they did pretty good. That was a great book too. The extended version was the shit!

 

[eighterumg5]

I like Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury even though I grew up watching the white Nick Fury in the cartoons. Probably because he was just a meh character to me in the first place and SLJ made him interesting.

I don't like the new Mary Jane of the MCU. Because MJ is such a major character who is so established in her appearance.

I wish they would just create new characters for representation of POC.

I think Glenn in The Walking Dead is a good example of POC representation done right. And probably why the actor is well liked in South Korea, whereas other Korean American actors are not.

In general I think it's just being done in a "for the sake of it" manner and not organically in a way that feels natural. More like the creatives patting themselves on the back and people in the SJW camp going "HELL YEAH ANOTHER W FOR US WE ARE MAKING HISTORY!" way.

If they changed an established male character to be Korean American I'd roll my eyes at it even though I belong to that demographic.

remember when David hasselhoff was Nick Fury!?

 

[Eusung]

remember when David hasselhoff was Nick Fury!?

I didn't know that. Good trivia.

Kurt Russell would have made a cool Nick Fury.

 

[nhbbear]

I was enthralled by the books, as I am most things King. Dont remember much of the movie other than thinking this isnt what I visualized. Perhaps its because of that tension that they changed it up.

However they couldve just not mentioned it in the movie if it was going to be too controversial, or possibly unfairly damning to King with goofs claiming hes racist because he wrote about racism. Pretty certain Kings always had a major say in all of his film adaptations.

End of the day its all just fiction anyway. I prefer my racism in that form or on the comedy stage than irl. Can we move on please? That question directed to our chaos incarnate species.

My own internal thoughts on the matters of gender and skin colour over the last few years have been so unbelievably fluid (tee hee) that Im not surprised it seems no one knows wtf is going on including those pushing their ideas as divine law on everyone else.

Chaos post concluded lest I lose myself in a rabbit hole.

Yeah, I am def a King fan. I feel he has phoned in quite a few books the last few years, but I loved his classics(minus Salem’s lot-just didn’t dig that one), and his stuff from the 90s right up to and including doctor sleep. Insomnia actually put me to sleep, but I did like how it had some dark tower nods, as did talisman and my fav king book, black house(i know, he do-wrote with Straub, but it had his name on it, and damn I hope they work together again or he works with another good horror writer). I would love to see the talisman/blackhouse books become a movie, but it also scares the hell out of me because they always end up either mostly sucking(new It, and old It and stand for their time), or they decide “you know who would be a good choice for the old, beat down and grizzled-yet still dangerous as hell cowboy, a currently hot black, British guy.”

And dark tower tackled racism quite a bit with Susan’s History and her Detta/Susana alter egos.

And I oftem feel like King just kind of cashes his checks and has little input to the film adaptations these days. I know he used to care quite a bit, was always in his movies a la Stan Lee, and even stared in a few roles-creep show. He also did a lot of his own reading in some of his audiobooks and he is actually pretty damn good, but he is certainly no Frank Muller-my fav, who did talisman/blackhouse and the first 5 dark tower books until a motorcycle accident they led to his death. George Guidall then took over and he is reallly good as is Ron Mcclarty if you have never listened to them. I have to say, i found Ron McClarty so disturbing when he read the Anne rice books The Wolf gift where he has sex scenes, including a gay fairy man sex scene, as well as a werewolf with woman sex scene where this man who looks like Santa Claus is reading about a werewolf’s red rocket penetrating this woman who is quite aroused, saying “oh Laura, and he has this thick, guttural and clenched style-my wife and i were so horrified! Anyway, i think he puts way more thought into his audiobooks than he does his movies anymore.

 

[Which Doctor]

When you read a book, the movie happens in your brain; it's your movie. When you go watch a movie that someone else made, you're leaving it in the hands of the judges.

 

[eighterumg5]

I didn't know that. Good trivia.

Kurt Russell would have made a cool Nick Fury.