Question for social progressives about gender verse race social construct

You're talking about "sex," not gender, if we're trying to be accurate with contemporary terms.

It does feel like semantics in an attempt to separate the two because what someone 'identifies' as doesn't change the biological reality. However, I do empathize with them and would be happy to "allow it" on the condition that people stop making a hard conflation between sexual orientation and gender identity. They really are fundamentally different, and transgenderism comes with a lot of societal baggage that being gay or bisexual doesn't.

Medical science uses the genetic history of a patient in order to prescribe the correct course of treatment. It's not the race that the doctor is looking at but the likely genetic makeup of the patient. It's not the be all end of all of treatment plans either, the doctor is likely more worried about family medical history than anything.

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm pretty sure I said regional differences. To make the obvious point -

Should doctors categorize their different diagnosis according to your family history, given the same signs and symptoms?

If I ask my old man, what he's going to say is that he's going to look at your family history, your age, your particular individual habits and lifestyle long before he starts worrying about your race. He's not going to rule out or rule in anything based on race because after enough years practicing medicine - you treat the patient in front of you.

It's less physicians and more bench scientists in bio-medical research. The former don't often have more than very limited and rudimentary insight into human genetics. The physician-scientist merges the best of both worlds between research and clinical practice, but they're pretty rare.

The most prominent example would be our NIH director, the geneticist Francis Collins - you probs know him @nac386 - who was responsible for heading the Human Genome Project after taking over duties from molecular biologist James Watson (the controversial co-discoverer of DNA's double helix structure) in 1993. He's also a professor of internal medicine and is now spearheading the Precision Medicine Initiative.

The aforementioned David Reich described some of the social and political challenges surrounding the concept of race as far as medical research in regards to the extremely high levels of sensitivity surrounding it in this excerpt from his recent book. It's very much worth the read IMO, particularly if you pride yourself on being informed about myriad subjects. It's admittedly not an easy one.

David Reich said:
When I started my first academic job in 2003, I bet my career on the idea that the history of mixture of West Africans and Europeans in the Americas would make it possible to find risk factors that contribute to health disparities for diseases like prostate cancer, which occurs at about a rate 1.7 times higher in African Americans than in European Americans. This particular disparity had not been possible to explain based on dietary and environmental differences across populations, suggesting that genetic factors might play a role.

African Americans today derive about 80 percent of their ancestry from enslaved Africans brought to North America between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries. In a large group of African Americans, the proportion of African ancestry at any one location in the genome is expected to be close to the average (defining the proportion of African ancestry as the fraction of ancestors that were in West Africa before around five hundred years ago). However, if there are risk factors for prostate cancer that occur at higher frequency in West Africans than in Europeans, then African Americans with prostate cancer are expected to have inherited more African ancestry than the average in the vicinity of these genetic variations. This idea can be used to pinpoint disease genes.

To make such studies possible, I set up a molecular biology laboratory to identify mutations that differed in frequency between West Africans and Europeans. My colleagues and I developed methods that used information from these mutations to identify where in the genome people harbor segments of DNA derived from their West African and European ancestors. To prove that these ideas worked in practice, we applied them to many traits, including prostate cancer, uterine fibroids, late-stage kidney disease, multiple sclerosis, low white blood cell count, and type 2 diabetes.

In 2006, my colleagues and I applied our methods to 1,597 African American men with prostate cancer, and found that in one region of the genome, they had about 2.8 percent more African ancestry than the average in the rest of their genomes. The odds of seeing a rise in African ancestry this large by accident were about ten million to one. When we looked in more detail, we found that this region contained at least seven independent risk factors for prostate cancer, all more common in West Africans than in Europeans. Our findings could account entirely for the higher rate of prostate cancer in African Americans than in European Americans. We could conclude this because African Americans who happen to have entirely European ancestry in this small section of their genomes had about the same risk for prostate cancer as random European Americans.

In 2008, I gave a talk about my work on prostate cancer to a conference on health disparities across ethnic groups in the United States. In my talk, I tried to communicate my excitement about the scientific approach and my conviction that it could help to find genetic risk factors for other diseases. Afterward, though, I was angrily questioned by an anthropologist in the audience, who believed that by studying “West African” or “European” segments of DNA to understand biological differences between groups, I was flirting with racism. Her questions were seconded by several others, and I encountered similar responses at other meetings.

A legal ethicist who heard me talk on a similar theme suggested that I might want to refer to the populations from which African Americans descend as “cluster A” and “cluster B.” But I replied that it would be dishonest to disguise the model of history that was driving this work. Every feature of the data I looked at suggested that this model was a scientifically meaningful one, providing accurate estimates of where in the genome people harbor segments of DNA from ancestors who lived in West Africa or in Europe in the last twenty generations, prior to the mixture caused by colonialism and the slave trade. It was also clear that the approach was identifying real risk factors for disease that differ in frequency across populations, leading to discoveries with the potential to improve health.

Far from being extremists, my questioners were articulating a mainstream view about the danger of work exploring biological differences among human populations. In 1942, the anthropologist Ashley Montagu wrote "Man’s Most Dangerous Myth: The Fallacy of Race", arguing that race is a social concept and has no biological reality, and setting the tone for how anthropologists and many biologists have discussed this issue ever since.

A classic example often cited is the inconsistent definition of “black.” In the United States, people tend to be called “black” if they have sub-Saharan African ancestry—even if it is a small fraction and even if their skin color is very light. In Great Britain, “black” tends to mean anyone with sub-Saharan African ancestry who also has dark skin. In Brazil, the definition is different yet again: a person is only “black” if he or she is entirely African in ancestry. If “black” has so many inconsistent definitions, how can there be any biological meaning to “race”?

In this way, through the collaboration of anthropologists and geneticists, a consensus was established that there are no differences among human populations that are large enough to support the concept of “biological race.” Lewontin’s results made it clear that for the great majority of traits, human populations overlap to such a degree that it is impossible to identify a single biological trait that distinguishes people in any two groups, which is intuitively what some people think of when they conceive of “biological race.”

But this consensus view of many anthropologists and geneticists has morphed, seemingly without questioning, into an orthodoxy that the biological differences among human populations are so modest that they should in practice be ignored—and moreover, because the issues are so fraught, that study of biological differences among populations should be avoided if at all possible. It should come as no surprise, then, that some anthropologists and sociologists see genetic research into differences across populations, even if done in a well-intentioned way, as problematic.

The concern is so acute that the political scientist Jacqueline Stevens has even suggested that research and even emails discussing biological differences across populations should be banned, and that the United States “should issue a regulation prohibiting its staff or grantee from publishing in any form - including internal documents and citations to other studies - claims about genetics associated with variables of race, ethnicity, nationality, or any other category of population that is observed or imagined as heritable."

The anthropologist Duana Fullwiley has written that the development of what she calls “admixture technology” and the language of “ancestry” that geneticists like me have adopted is a reversion to traditional ideas of biological race. She has pointed out that in the United States, the “ancestry” terms that we use map relatively closely to traditional racial categories, and her view is that the population genetics community has invented a set of euphemisms to discuss topics that had become taboo. The belief that we have embraced euphemisms is also shared by some on the other side of the political spectrum.

At a 2010 meeting I attended at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, the journalist Nicholas Wade described his resentment of the population genetics community’s “ancestry” terminology, asserting that “race is a perfectly good English word.” But ancestry is not a euphemism, nor is it synonymous with “race.” Instead, the term is born of an urgent need to come up with a precise language to discuss genetic differences among people at a time when scientific developments have finally provided the tools to detect them. It is now undeniable that there are nontrivial average genetic differences across populations in multiple traits, and the race vocabulary is too ill-defined and too loaded with historical baggage to be helpful.

I have deep sympathy for the concern that genetic discoveries about differences among populations may be misused to justify racism. But it is precisely because of this sympathy that I am worried that people who deny the possibility of substantial biological differences among populations across a range of traits are digging themselves into an indefensible position, one that will not survive the onslaught of science.

In the last couple of decades, most population geneticists have sought to avoid contradicting the orthodoxy. When asked about the possibility of biological differences among human populations, we have tended to obfuscate, making mathematical statements in the spirit of Richard Lewontin about the average difference between individuals from within any one population being around six times greater than the average difference between populations. But this carefully worded formulation is deliberately masking the possibility of substantial average differences in biological traits across populations.
 
Damn @NoDak ..........

am7198V_460s.jpg
 
Damn @NoDak ..........

am7198V_460s.jpg

Hah, that's physics although my bud @EGarrett would disagree and that's fine.

It could be useful, I went back to finish grad certs in bio-chemistry but which deals far more in physical structure, processes and reaction mechanisms; as far as I'm concerned DNA is just a polymer made up of nucleotides held together by hydrogen bonds on adjacent strands between the bases of adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosine. The hell with interpreting gene expression and the implications on a strictly biological front just given all of the social and political scrutiny that goes with it now.

I implore you to watch this interview, Viva.



But nah, there's really not a whole lot of separation between bio-chem, molecular biology and to a slightly lesser extent genetics. It was chemist Linus Pauling who all but established the sub-field of molecular biology and none other than Francis Crick that called him the father of it, even penning an essay on it. It was a bio-chemist (Frederick Sanger) who developed the chain termination methods which first made DNA sequencing possible.
 
I don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm pretty sure I said regional differences. To make the obvious point -

Should doctors categorize their different diagnosis according to your family history, given the same signs and symptoms?

If I ask my old man, what he's going to say is that he's going to look at your family history, your age, your particular individual habits and lifestyle long before he starts worrying about your race. He's not going to rule out or rule in anything based on race because after enough years practicing medicine - you treat the patient in front of you.


Given that its the first fucking thing you notice in an exam room its not something noted "long after" the rest of someone's non-modifiable risk factors. Don't be a dolt like usual.
 
Hah, that's physics although my bud @EGarrett would disagree and that's fine.

It could be useful, I went back to finish grad certs in bio-chemistry but which deals far more in physical structure, processes and reaction mechanisms; as far as I'm concerned DNA is just a polymer made up of nucleotides held together by hydrogen bonds on adjacent strands between the bases of adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosine. The hell with interpreting gene expression and the implications on a strictly biological front just given all of the social and political scrutiny that goes with it now.

I implore you to watch this interview, Viva.



But nah, there's really not a whole lot of separation between bio-chem, molecular biology and to a slightly lesser extent genetics. It was chemist Linus Pauling who all but established the sub-field of molecular biology and none other than Francis Crick that called him the father of it, even penning an essay on it. It was a bio-chemist (Frederick Sanger) who developed the chain termination methods which first made DNA sequencing possible.


Interesting watch.

I won't claim that the idea that race and gender are social constructs is the most precise language, but the way people talk about race and gender, and the beliefs many hold in respects to those concepts, needs some kind of terminology to differentiate between the genetics arguments.

I think we still see allot of that 1920's genetics stuff echoed in the WR here. So that really shows the inherent danger there, despite the fact that I agree the pendulum has swung too far in a equally dangerous direction.
 
Are you sure you have the genetic material necessary to support free speech and the 2A? o_O
Uh, y-yes of course! Please don't send me to the camps...
 
Interesting watch.

I won't claim that the idea that race and gender are social constructs is the most precise language, but the way people talk about race and gender, and the beliefs many hold in respects to those concepts, needs some kind of terminology to differentiate between the genetics arguments.

I think we still see allot of that 1920's genetics stuff echoed in the WR here. So that really shows the inherent danger there, despite the fact that I agree the pendulum has swung too far in a equally dangerous direction.

Well, skin color as the basis of "race" is most definitely a social construct and none of my posts ITT are intended to be in remote dispute to that, although skin color itself obviously is not. It's a polygenic trait with many genetic loci involved in its expression that has the global variation it does from the result of real evolutionary processes. This is why white people are logically only fit to live underground like groveling goblins.

On the flip side, people of (darker) color can't really use Tretinoin, the biologically active metabolite of Vitamin A. It's used prophylactically and wields a strong influence on cell growth and differentiation, collagen and elastin synthesis as well as indirectly inhibits matrix metalloproteinases, which are enzymes that become overactive as you age and lead to wrinkles and sagging skin. Since black doesn't crack, we have to cheat. :p
 
Because he's a liberal sweetheart

Yeah, he seems sweet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...a-total-disaster-and-he-has-himself-to-blame/

How did Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the world’s favorite liberal mascot — a feminist man, with movie-star good looks, a 50 percent female cabinet and a political lexicon that has replaced “mankind” with “peoplekind” (making millions swoon) — end up looking silly, diminished and desperate on his trip to India this week?

Trudeau’s eight-day India expedition has been an absolute fiasco.

Hours before meeting with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, his journey hit a dead end when the Canadian high commissioner invited a Sikh extremist named Jaspal Atwal (who has been convicted of attempted murder and was previously affiliated with a terrorist group) to a dinner to honor Trudeau in Delhi. Atwal was found guilty of trying to kill an Indian minister in 1986; he was also blamed for an assault on Ujjal Dosanjh, the former premier of British Columbia.




"Unprecedented In The HISTORY Of International Relations..."

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Amazing how you can tell what social construct someone belongs to from just a sample of their DNA.
 
Amazing how you can tell what social construct someone belongs to from just a sample of their DNA.
That's just it, someone can have 85%+ European admixture but if those dominant African genes they have with melanin and curly hair are obvious, they are fucking black. If you think about it for a couple minutes it becomes obvious we don't classify races strictly by DNA content.
 
Gender and race are both social constructs and talked about as such.

For proof of race being a social construct you can just look at was considered white 200 years ago, 100 years ago and see how it's changed in the present. Also, as you mention, mixed genetic heritage cast doubts on the accuracy of race labels. Most often someone's assigned race reflects what they appear to be rather than their actual genetic ancestry.

Likewise gender is a culturally crafted identity assigned to each sex. Sex is biological while gender is cultural. There are many possible cases to look at to see how gender has changed over the years, but one that comes quickly to mind is the perception of the teaching profession. In the days of ancient Greece, teaching was seen as a man's profession. When public education began in earnest in the nineteenth century and through the first half of the twentieth century, teaching children was considered a woman's profession although teaching college was considered a man's profession. In present day, both genders are acceptable teachers at any level by the vast majority of society.

Many gender roles, gender norms and gender based behaviors are genetically hardwired and can be seen throughout the animal kingdom, especially in mammals. It goes way beyond obvious outwardly physical features like genitalia, size, muscle mass, bone structure etc and we are no different.

If you truly believe the nonsense you have posted here then you are pretty much on par with a flat eather.
 
I got a question for any social progressives here. The Elizabeth Warren fiasco got me to thinking. Why are social progressives pushing the idea that gender is a social construct, but not race?

Let me expand a bit here. Gender as in X and Y chromosome, is science. There are 2 genders. Gender roles however, what it means to be a man, or women, that is a social construct.

Now, with race, the same can be said. There is genetic race, and their is racial identity. Most of the world genetically is a mutt, and yet we talk about race as if white has a definition. At what % from your DNA test, are you kicked out of team white people, or team black people?

See, in the way race and gender are usually talked about, they are social constructs, and not scientific definitions.

So why don't we hear the talk about race being a social construct?

Is the answer as simple as intersectionalism, or is it that racial intersectionalism isn't politically viable for dems, and yet gender is?

If that is the latter, I might have to think about becoming a white nationalist over being associated in any way with social progressives, and the DNC. That would be the definition of social corrosion for the sake of political gain.

Discuss.........

Because people can act any gender they like to pretend to be but cannot act being another race convincingly.
 
Btw, the idea that race is a social construct completely destroys the idea of cultural appropriation. Those two ideas can't exist in the same world.

No, race and culture are totally different concepts.
 
Race is real and race matters. Medical science can point to significant differences between ethnicities, and as it turns out in the clinic and as a clinician your differential diagnosis changes drastically for the same S/Sx when the patient is a different race. The next leap is to acknowledge that biology and evolution don't stop at the neck. The experiment of multiculturalism needs to end.

Race is not culture ya goof.
 
No, race and culture are totally different concepts.

True, but if race is a social construct, then you could join whatever race you wanted.

It becomes more a club, then a born Identity.

This actually makes a bit of sense if you think about it. Black in the US is the best example I can think of. Black Americans have fuck all to do with Africa. Most have varying degrees of other racial genetics. Is a 50 % anglo, 50% African genetics make up white or black? How about 40-60, 30-70, 20-80, 1/1025-1024/1025?

Despite sharing genetic material, what does a African American, and a African have in common culturally?
 
True, but if race is a social construct, then you could join whatever race you wanted.

It becomes more a club, then a born Identity.

This actually makes a bit of sense if you think about it. Black in the US is the best example I can think of. Black Americans have fuck all to do with Africa. Most have varying degrees of other racial genetics. Is a 50 % anglo, 50% African genetics make up white or black? How about 40-60, 30-70, 20-80, 1/1025-1024/1025?

Despite sharing genetic material, what does a African American, and a African have in common culturally?

You're confusing race and culture again.

Both are sliding scales also, stop trying to be so black and white about it.
 
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