Question for social progressives about gender verse race social construct

[Greoric]

Only if you consider Italians, and white Spanish, white, which wasn't the case at the time.

See, we are back to race being a social construct.

Yes, of course. And given a break up those disparate groups would have differences too. That's just our tribal nature.

 

[JonnyRingo84]

Not so sure that is the case anymore. Starting to wonder of this is just about activating voter blocks, and while gender as a social construct achieves political gain, race as a social construct, would actually hurt the Dems in their attempts to activate voting blocks.

i think both are probably true.

i recall years before this shitstorm about gender in bathrooms and such hit, that there were already people using gender to refer to masculinity or femininity. even hardcore right wingers will not dispute that such a spectrum exists (more masculine/feminine). some people have simply given that spectrum a label now. then there are people who use gender synonymously with sex. i dont think either use of the word is really unreasonable, but its causing a lot of confusion.

then i do think there are people using it as a wedge issue for political gain, on both sides.

and then there are a small number of people imo, who act as if your parts literally do not matter, and even your sex is defined based on how you feel about it.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I agree, and that's why it's important for this Hegelian dialectic to start swinging back to reality, before we get any more insane with the cultural Marxism so we can avoid another overcorrection to a fourth Reich: US style.

That was driven by economics. The economics drove the tribalism.

You want to avoid the fourth Reich, we might want to figure out how to make people feel financially secure.

 

[Leagon]

Race is real and race matters. Medical science can point to significant differences between ethnicities, and as it turns out in the clinic and as a clinician your differential diagnosis changes drastically for the same S/Sx when the patient is a different race. The next leap is to acknowledge that biology and evolution don't stop at the neck. The experiment of multiculturalism needs to end.

Not quite.

Yes, there are human populations with significant differences. But the classifications we have for race only minimally represent these differences. For example, Fedor and qnd Dominick Cruz are the same "race" even though they are clearly biologically different. Ethnic classifications are quite a bit better than racial ones, but even those aren't ideal.

Then you move on to multiculturalism, which is entirely different from race and ethnicity. You've got your lines crossed.

 

[Greoric]

That was driven by economics. The economics drove the tribalism.

You want to avoid the fourth Reich, we might want to figure out how to make people feel financially secure.

Great addition. Just imagine how the tension in this country is going to look with the next economic downturn.

 

[Greoric]

Not quite.

Yes, there are human populations with significant differences. But the classifications we have for race only minimally represent these differences. For example, Fedor and qnd Dominick Cruz are the same "race" even though they are clearly biologically different. Ethnic classifications are quite a bit better than racial ones, but even those aren't ideal.

Then you move on to multiculturalism, which is entirely different from race and ethnicity. You've got your lines crossed.

Respectfully you don't understand what you're talking about. Ethnicity is informed by race.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Great addition. Just imagine how the tension in this country is going to look with the next economic downturn.

My guess is that the most recent YouTube crackdown was aimed at this.

They literally banned a bunch of cop watch, and government accountability websites, saying it had to do with adds.

Was complete and utter BS, and appeared to me to be preparation for the next financial crisis, and the skulls the jack booted thugs will have to bash to keep order.

Elon musk blunt toke.....what if the elite had a carbon reduction plan, and it is called WWIII.....

 

[Greoric]

My guess is that the most recent YouTube crackdown was aimed at this.

They literally banned a bunch of cop watch, and government accountability websites, saying it had to do with adds.

Was complete and utter BS, and appeared to me to be preparation for the next financial crisis, and the skulls the jack booted thugs will have to bash to keep order.

To be fair though, its hard for me to go along with thinking the power's that be are that forward looking, and that efficient at it. Our saving grace is how incompetent gov'ts are.

 

[djacobox372]

People can identify with whatever they like. I don't give a F.

That said, there's a HUGE difference between men and women, which makes it a much bigger issue. There is almost no difference between races other than outward appearance--and you can appropriate a culture without pretending you look different than you do.

 

[Leagon]

Respectfully you don't understand what you're talking about. Ethnicity is informed by race.

I...didn't say it wasn't. You've made an entirely irrelevant point, probably because you'd rather do that than actually support your position or argue against mine.

 

[VivaRevolution]

People can identify with whatever they like. I don't give a F.

That said, there's a HUGE difference between men and women, which makes it a much bigger issue. There is almost no difference between races other than outward appearance--and you can appropriate a culture without pretending you look different than you do.

Look, this is the same conversation I was just having with greoric.

Yes, their are statistical differences between male and female ability, but what does that average difference mean in the real world?

If you are interviewing over a phone for hardcore manual labor job, can you assume this individual female isn't capable, because the average female isn't?

If you can't, then what is the value of that knowledge?

 

[Greoric]

I...didn't say it wasn't. You've made an entirely irrelevant point, probably because you'd rather do that than actually support your position or argue against mine.

I don't know what you're talking about dude. I'm just stating race is real and it matters for the organization of society, as buttressed by the disparate polling and voting preferences among the populations. Nothing about that is controversial, unless you just like talking feelings.

 

[VivaRevolution]

To be fair though, its hard for me to go along with thinking the power's that be are that forward looking, and that efficient at it. Our saving grace is how incompetent gov'ts are.

Not for me. I think the governments are powerless puppets. The real powers are highly efficient and playing games at a different level. They are private, with different houses of competing power.

 

[Greoric]

Not for me. I think the governments are powerless puppets. The real powers are highly efficient and playing games at a different level. They are private, with different houses of competing power.

Yeah I'd offer whether private or public doesn't really matter. The same reasons that make gov'ts so inefficient are the same ones that make monopolies so wasteful, as well as the same reasons why as any given organization grows in size it also becomes wasteful and inefficient.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Yeah I'd offer whether private or public doesn't really matter. The same reasons that make gov'ts so inefficient are the same ones that make monopolies so wasteful, as well as the same reasons why as any given organization grows in size it also becomes wasteful and inefficient.

My only qualification to this would be, over time.

I think centralization is actually more efficient, it just becomes corrupt quicker in correlation to it's centralization, over time, making it in the end, more inefficient. It's a important distinction though, as it allows for decentralized systems to eventually be corrupted, and for centralized systems to succeed at first.

 

[Greoric]

My only qualification to this would be over time. I think centralization is actually more efficient, it just becomes corrupt quicker in correlation to it's centralization, over time, making it in the end, more inefficient. It's a important distinction though, as it allows for decentralized systems to eventually be corrupted, and for centralized systems to succeed at first.

Sorry for derailing your thread here, but anecdotally we can even see that's not the case. Leaders govern more efficiently when task are delegated, and organizations function better when compartmentalized; all effects to decentralize. It's just goes back the Hayekian knowledge problem. The more local knowledge is the better its acted on. That's why in the board rooms of large firms, they're more concerned with the newest start-ups versus their industry rivals. These leviathan companies take time to adjust not needed by smaller operations.

 

[Leagon]

I don't know what you're talking about dude. I'm just stating race is real and it matters for the organization of society, as buttressed by the disparate polling and voting preferences among the populations. Nothing about that is controversial, unless you just like talking feelings.

I didn't say that anything you said was controversial. I initially just said that it is more complex than how you're portraying it, then you said that I don't know what I'm talking about.

No one has ever debated whether race is "real". The question is about whether it has a primarily biological basis or whether it is largely socially constructed. The answer is the latter. If by "real" you mean the former, then we can debate that.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Sorry for derailing your thread here, but anecdotally we can even see that's not the case. Leaders govern more efficiently when task are delegated, and organizations function better when compartmentalized; all effects to decentralize. It's just goes back the Hayekian knowledge problem. The more local knowledge is the better its acted on. That's why in the board rooms of large firms, they're more concerned with the newest start-ups versus their industry rivals. These leviathan companies take time to adjust not needed by smaller operations.

True, to a point. Let's look at China. If faced with the problem of taking 1.5 billion people from a agriculture based economy, past inidstrial revolution, into the information economy, in a matter of a generation, I think the centralization was more efficient. This is due to the nature of the problem.

Where as a military force dealing with a guerilla insurgency would be practiaclly disabled by a central command that allowed for little to no autonomy.

 

[Greoric]

Where as a military force dealing with a guerilla insurgency would be practiaclly disabled by a central command that allowed for little to no autonomy.

Wait what? In asymmetrical warfare, insurgencies only stand a chance because they're decentralized....

 

[BangersAndSmash]

I got a question for any social progressives here. The Elizabeth Warren fiasco got me to thinking. Why are social progressives pushing the idea that gender is a social construct, but not race?

Let me expand a bit here. Gender as in X and Y chromosome, is science. There are 2 genders. Gender roles however, what it means to be a man, or women, that is a social construct.

Now, with race, the same can be said. There is genetic race, and their is racial identity. Most of the world genetically is a mutt, and yet we talk about race as if white has a definition. At what % from your DNA test, are you kicked out of team white people, or team black people?

See, in the way race and gender are usually talked about, they are social constructs, and not scientific definitions.

So why don't we hear the talk about race being a social construct?

Is the answer as simple as intersectionalism, or is it that racial intersectionalism isn't politically viable for dems, and yet gender is?

If that is the latter, I might have to think about becoming a white nationalist over being associated in any way with social progressives, and the DNC. That would be the definition of social corrosion for the sake of political gain.

Discuss.........

Gender and race are both social constructs and talked about as such.

For proof of race being a social construct you can just look at was considered white 200 years ago, 100 years ago and see how it's changed in the present. Also, as you mention, mixed genetic heritage cast doubts on the accuracy of race labels. Most often someone's assigned race reflects what they appear to be rather than their actual genetic ancestry.

Likewise gender is a culturally crafted identity assigned to each sex. Sex is biological while gender is cultural. There are many possible cases to look at to see how gender has changed over the years, but one that comes quickly to mind is the perception of the teaching profession. In the days of ancient Greece, teaching was seen as a man's profession. When public education began in earnest in the nineteenth century and through the first half of the twentieth century, teaching children was considered a woman's profession although teaching college was considered a man's profession. In present day, both genders are acceptable teachers at any level by the vast majority of society.