International Putin signs mutual defence pact with North Korea, heralds 'New World Order' in meeting with Iranian president

[Possum Jenkins]

Except of course that they are literally fighting to occupy it right now lol

Yeah, and look how great it's going for them. 3 years and they got a few of the Russian-dominated areas.

Oh but watch out, Poland and Hungary are next!

 

[Limbo Pete]

Yeah, and look how great it's going for them. 3 years and they got a few of the Russian-dominated areas.

Oh but watch out, Poland and Hungary are next!

Yeah, you're not making the point you think you're making here bud lol

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Yeah, you're not making the point you think you're making here bud lol

Great argument. Keep contributing to the discussion.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Great argument. Keep contributing to the discussion.

Oh hey you're welcome. I can't fix ignorance, but at least I can poke fun at it

 

[filthybliss]

Great argument. Keep contributing to the discussion.

Oh hey you're welcome. I can't fix ignorance, but at least I can poke fun at it

Well, can we atleast agree that Russia was outta line for the invasion and child trafficking?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Well, can we atleast agree that Russia was outta line for the invasion and child trafficking?

"bUt OnLy If YoU AGrEe tHE WeSt iS ALso tO BLaMe!"
Everyone is at fault, which is why we should withdraw from supporting Ukraine and let the chips fall where they may, which definitely won't end up with those same tankies blaming the US for Ukraine being further obliterated, while also praising Russia for being strong enough to resist Western aggression

 

[filthybliss]

"bUt OnLy If YoU AGrEe tHE WeSt iS ALso tO BLaMe!"
Everyone is at fault, which is why we should withdraw from supporting Ukraine and let the chips fall where they may, which definitely won't end up with those same tankies blaming the US for Ukraine being further obliterated, while also praising Russia for being strong enough to resist Western aggression

You are not going to change his mind. Ukraine was denuclearized and out of NATO discourse in 2014 before they got invaded...

You can wire an "explanation" for any travesty if you try hard enough. It reminds me of when Sam Harris suggested that Jews had played a role in the holocaust by being super insular and having supremacist beliefs. But even there, he was being nuanced in his approach and obviously acknowledged that Hitler was fucking batshit.

 

[Limbo Pete]

You are not going to change his mind.

Well yeah
Fucking with people on the internet would be a lot less fun if they were more amenable to rethinking their nonsense

 

[Cid]

I'm not saying pack up and leave, I'm saying work out a ceasefire agreement.

If you want to reduce harm to the Ukrainian people, you have to work out a diplomatic agreement because you're not going to beat Russia militarily. This was clear from the beginning.

It was clear from the beginning that Vietnam wouldn't be able to beat America. Or Japan. Or China.

OK China did come after America...but they beat all three one century.

History is littered with greater upsets than this one.

Did the Vietnamese ever manage to pull off strikes like this in America? I'm trying to remember.



Afghanistan insurgency?
Iraqi insurgency?

 

[Rod1]

For the same reason Cuba joining the Warsaw Pact wasn't even a thought during the Cold War.

Cuba was more of a member of the Warsaw Pact than Ukraine was of NATO, they still had extensive military cooperation.

The USSR was very unlikely to attack the much more powerful US but despite that, having a rival military alliance is going to be seen as a threat.

Glad you brought that up

1.- Cuban communist State gets invaded by US backed revolutionaries (Bay of Pigs)

2.- Cuba looks for a stronger partner to provide protection (USSR)

3.- US throws a tantrum when nukes are put inside of Cuba

4.- US and USSR reach an agreement, US won't invade and respect the territorial integrity of Cuba in exchange Cuba remains "neutral" as in no nukes and no warsaw pact but still plenty of trade and military cooperation.

It really comes down to applying standards equally.

If we apply standards equally, Ukraine would be part of the Western trade bloc, it would have Western intelligence and military cooperation along with Western intelligence bases, be armed and equipped with Western weapons. The only things that would happen is that it would not be part of NATO and wouldn't have nukes, so like Finland or Sweden.

So yeah, that's applying standards equally.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

It was clear from the beginning that Vietnam wouldn't be able to beat America. Or Japan. Or China.

OK China did come after America...but they beat all three one century.

History is littered with greater upsets than this one.

Did the Vietnamese ever manage to pull off strikes like this in America? I'm trying to remember.



Afghanistan insurgency?
Iraqi insurgency?

I've been reading about and watching these type of videos since the 2nd week of the war. You'd think Red Square would be flying the Ukrainian flag by now.

We're about to hit the 3 year mark so I guess you can keep hoping for that upset to materialize but I'm not convinced.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Cuba was more of a member of the Warsaw Pact than Ukraine was of NATO, they still had extensive military cooperation.

I can't find any statements or proclamations that Cuba will become a member of the Warsaw Pact. There's tons of those between Ukraine and NATO.

Glad you brought that up

1.- Cuban communist State gets invaded by US backed revolutionaries (Bay of Pigs)

2.- Cuba looks for a stronger partner to provide protection (USSR)

3.- US throws a tantrum when nukes are put inside of Cuba

4.- US and USSR reach an agreement, US won't invade and respect the territorial integrity of Cuba in exchange Cuba remains "neutral" as in no nukes and no warsaw pact but still plenty of trade and military cooperation.

1. Cuba was not communist at the time of the Bay of Pigs. The US pushed it towards the Soviet Union

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. No Warsaw Pact and the removal of missiles pointed at the US.

But this isn't even an option for Russia today. They're not asking for NATO to remove all the missiles pointed at it in Germany, Turkey, and Italy. Just that NATO stop expanding into Ukraine.

If we apply standards equally, Ukraine would be part of the Western trade bloc, it would have Western intelligence and military cooperation along with Western intelligence bases, be armed and equipped with Western weapons. The only things that would happen is that it would not be part of NATO and wouldn't have nukes, so like Finland or Sweden.

So yeah, that's applying standards equally.

We're talking about levels of threat.

China setting up bases in Mexico or Canada is the closest we can get to that scenario. And even then it's not fully comparable because China has only really become a world power in the last decade and doesn't have a military alliance while NATO has been a military alliance hostile to Russia for almost 80 years now.

If this took place, we'd demand that the relationship be ended and threaten military action if it didn't.

I'd encourage anyone that's truly interested in learning more about this to watch this great debate between Mearsheimer and Carl Bildt.



They touch on the EXACT arguments that we're making here but obviously with a ton more details. And this Bildt dude is no lightweight. He's a former prime minister of Sweden and a lifelong diplomat.

I personally learned a lot.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I can't find any statements or proclamations that Cuba will become a member of the Warsaw Pact. There's tons of those between Ukraine and NATO.



1. Cuba was not communist at the time of the Bay of Pigs. The US pushed it towards the Soviet Union

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. No Warsaw Pact and the removal of missiles pointed at the US.

But this isn't even an option for Russia today. They're not asking for NATO to remove all the missiles pointed at it in Germany, Turkey, and Italy. Just that NATO stop expanding into Ukraine.




We're talking about levels of threat.

China setting up bases in Mexico or Canada is the closest we can get to that scenario. And even then it's not fully comparable because China has only really become a world power in the last decade and doesn't have a military alliance while NATO has been a military alliance hostile to Russia for almost 80 years now.

If this took place, we'd demand that the relationship be ended and threaten military action if it didn't.

I'd encourage anyone that's truly interested in learning more about this to watch this great debate between Mearsheimer and Carl Bildt.



They touch on the EXACT arguments that we're making here but obviously with a ton more details. And this Bildt dude is no lightweight. He's a former prime minister of Sweden and a lifelong diplomat.

I personally learned a lot.

You've GOT to stop freebasing Mearsheimer farts

 

[Rod1]

I can't find any statements or proclamations that Cuba will become a member of the Warsaw Pact. There's tons of those between Ukraine and NATO.

Right, Cuba never had Russian nuclear missiles and the 1962 crisis never happened right? Cuba didn't become a Warsaw Pact member because they wanted to covertly fill the country with nukes and then got caught, after US-USSR negotiations an actual deal was made where US wouldn't invade Cuba as along as there wouldn't be nukes in the Island.

They still had plenty of military and intelligence cooperation.

But this isn't even an option for Russia today. They're not asking for NATO to remove all the missiles pointed at it in Germany, Turkey, and Italy. Just that NATO stop expanding into Ukraine.

No, they also want Ukraine to be completely disarmed, not have any military or intelligence cooperation with the West and outright be a client State.

This is what they fucking say all the time

 

[Rod1]

China setting up bases in Mexico or Canada is the closest we can get to that scenario.

Again, why would Mexico or Canada want military bases from China? Ukraine and other former Soviet Republics didn't just decided to join NATO from shit and giggles, they did so because they had LEGITIMATE SECURITY CONCERNS against Russia which Russia never dared to respect.

You sound like the kind of person who doesn't believes in national sovereignty, you believe small countries should act like colonies for bigger countries.

That's why you say "somehow Mexico went full China", you don't consider an scenario where an authortiarian hostile US would freak out Mexico with threats of invasions and destruction which would prompt Mexico to look for military alliances.

If we make "closest we can make to the scenario" then the US would simply invade and annex Baja California then support separatists groups in Sonora and Chihuahua just because Mexico wanted to get a trade deal with China.

At that point Mexico looking for help from China wouldn't be surprising, but that requires you to believe these countries have any agency which you dont.

For you Mexico or Canada aren't real countries just US colonies, they don't have any agency.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

You sound like the kind of person who doesn't believes in national sovereignty, you believe small countries should act like colonies for bigger countries.

International relations is the only field where I don't subscribe to the "liberal" label. In IR, liberals think nations behave according to principles and they follow international institutions for the benefit of all.

That sounds nice and I'd love to live in a world where the sovereignty of all nations is respected and all countries were free to set whatever government they want and to associate with whomever they want. This approach absolutely has the moral high ground. I'm a huge supporter of international law, the ICC, the ICJ, the UN, etc.

But it's also naive and not the way the world actually works. All of world history shows this. While we should definitely aim for living in a world where principles and institutions govern, we have to realize that we actually live in the "realist" scenario where force, self-interest, domination and survival are what shape inter-state behavior.

When trying to understand world events through this realist lens, the sovereignty of weaker states doesn't matter as much. Obviously it should matter but it doesn't.

 

[Limbo Pete]

International relations is the only field where I don't subscribe to the "liberal" label. In IR, liberals think nations behave according to principles and they follow international institutions for the benefit of all.

That sounds nice and I'd love to live in a world where the sovereignty of all nations is respected and all countries were free to set whatever government they want and to associate with whomever they want. This approach absolutely has the moral high ground. I'm a huge supporter of international law, the ICC, the ICJ, the UN, etc.

But it's also naive and not the way the world actually works. All of world history shows this. While we should definitely aim for living in a world where principles and institutions govern, we have to realize that we actually live in the "realist" scenario where force, self-interest, domination and survival are what shape inter-state behavior.

When trying to understand world events through this realist lens, the sovereignty of weaker states doesn't matter as much. Obviously it should matter but it doesn't.

You really, seriously need to lay off the Mearsheimer

 

[jx820]

they're friends with china and india

Countries don't have friends. They have interests. Sometimes they have allies in those interests.

It's worth noting that neither China nor India got in on this defensive pact, because it doesn't align with their interests.

 

[Cid]

I've been reading about and watching these type of videos since the 2nd week of the war. You'd think Red Square would be flying the Ukrainian flag by now.

We're about to hit the 3 year mark so I guess you can keep hoping for that upset to materialize but I'm not convinced.

You've been reading and watching videos of Ukraine's long range drone strikes from the second week of the war?

Despite them developing the capability only a year ago?

Those are two of the 80 or so successful strikes since the drone campaign started. The first triggered 21 readings of seismic activity.

Lowball estimate for next year if it continues is 500 successful strikes probably a fair bit more. US dumped 800M into the production of them. Lithuania started it and more countries will directly fund them.

3 years of warfare but they've only been able to strike Russia regularly for about 8 months now.

This is far from an unwinnable position.

You don't have to beat militaries conventionally. If you did America would be undefeated.

Horrible as it is 3 years is a fraction of the time it took to for the countries I mentioned to kick out America.

All biases aside of who I want to prevail..

If Kamala wins and this war continues there will be well over 20k of those drones sent into Russia in 2025.

Those videos were under 200. Ammo dump was high priority and got over 100 drones but the oil depots only 30 maybe.

Right now Ukraine is in an infinitely better position than any of the countries to kick out America this last century.


You can not say with any confidence either side will win right now unless you know the results of the next US election.

 

[Limbo Pete]

You've been reading and watching videos of Ukraine's long range drone strikes from the second week of the war?

Despite them developing the capability only a year ago?

Those are two of the 80 or so successful strikes since the drone campaign started. The first triggered 21 readings of seismic activity.

Lowball estimate for next year if it continues is 500 successful strikes probably a fair bit more. US dumped 800M into the production of them. Lithuania started it and more countries will directly fund them.

3 years of warfare but they've only been able to strike Russia regularly for about 8 months now.

This is far from an unwinnable position.

You don't have to beat militaries conventionally. If you did America would be undefeated.

Horrible as it is 3 years is a fraction of the time it took to for the countries I mentioned to kick out America.

All biases aside of who I want to prevail..

If Kamala wins and this war continues there will be well over 20k of those drones sent into Russia in 2025.

Those videos were under 200. Ammo dump was high priority and got over 100 drones but the oil depots only 30 maybe.

Right now Ukraine is in an infinitely better position than any of the countries to kick out America this last century.


You can not say with any confidence either side will win right now unless you know the results of the next US election.

He's been doom whining since the start. Poor Ukraine, caught in the evil machinations of NATO, now they have no choice but to accept Russian occupation for the good of everyone. And on and on.