Prime Lennox vs Prime Tyson

Kovalev's Man Bag said:
He spent weeks in the hospital after the first Ali fight? Let's reconstruct the timeline to avoid any confusion going forward.

Frazier beats Ali in 1971, takes a couple tune-ups, then loses to Foreman by stoppage in 1973. Takes a rebound fight against Bugner and then loses the Ali rematch in 1974. Beats Quarry & Ellis but loses the Ali trilogy in 1975. Immediately after he gets stopped again in the Foreman rematch in 1976.
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Yes, he spent 3or 4 weeks in the hospital, post Ali 1. His own man, Dave Wolf, has said that he could have died. It was the stress and effort from the training/fight plus his high blood pressure. In the HBO Docu, there was the rumor that he did die and Ali said, "if he did, I'll never fight again".

Also, Howard Cosell quotes Yank Durham as saying that the Ali fight left Joe so spent that they'd have to regroup by fighting a few patsies, which is what they did. Joe wasn't very active after the Ali fight, 2 fights I guess, against a couple soft touches before the sanctioning body forced him to either fight Ali or Foreman. Being as Joe hated Ali so much, he chose Foreman.

I'm not saying Frazier could have beaten George, just that I wonder if on that night where he gave a once in a lifetime effort, maybe he could have. Ali really did take it out of him in that fight, even though he lost it. If you've seen that fight, both men took tons of punishment but Joe took more, ali never hit harder than he did in that fight, you could hear his punches on the film. He also threw way more punches than Joe and landed more, Joe landed the power punches and deservedly won the fight but it cost him.

In his bio, I believe right after the foreman fight, he mentions the writers said he was on the decline and in his own book, he admits it. That style of his doesn't allow for a long career.
 
Streeter said:
Give Joe Louis all the knowledge , training, medical, nutrition , equipment to work out of today and yeah. put those other fighters in the 30s and 40s they wouldn't be what they are without all the knowledge gained over time and advancements in Trainig. . What I have seen of Joe Louis I don't think any hw csn beat him if all things equal. There's not a fighter today that finishes the fight with a Prime JL . Louis didn't decision till he was old he knocked everyone out. Maybe Ali gives him best fight due to IQ being off charts and maybe Foreman due to pure strength but I think Louis wins more of those than he loses.
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Maybe, he would still have the championship intangibles. I just can't see how a guy who had most opponents stand in front of him and do no more than step in or out, i don't see how that would work against an Ali or a Holmes. Ali called Joe "shuffling" but what he meant was that he was what Angelo called a "two stepper" meaning they have to move in and stand before they punch, to beat some of these other guys he'd have to do a lot more punching as he's stepping in and chasing. Tyson wouldn't require that because Mike would be right in his face but these other guys? Again, Joe had more skills than just about any heavyweight I've ever seen but he had some things that would cause him problems against movers and guys who'd do more than stand in front of him.
 
treelo said:
i kind of think this sometimes, Tyson hit guys multiple times and didnt shut them down in one shot, people tend to overlook this and concentrate on some of his one shot wins, he certainly had power, but i dont think he was the monster people made him out to be, he just could hit someone multiple times before they could do anything about it. Some fighters obviously folded when hit once
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Holyfield ate everything Tyson threw and then had him doing the stanky leg
 
mozfonky said:
Yes, he spent 3or 4 weeks in the hospital, post Ali 1. His own man, Dave Wolf, has said that he could have died. It was the stress and effort from the training/fight plus his high blood pressure. In the HBO Docu, there was the rumor that he did die and Ali said, "if he did, I'll never fight again".

Also, Howard Cosell quotes Yank Durham as saying that the Ali fight left Joe so spent that they'd have to regroup by fighting a few patsies, which is what they did. Joe wasn't very active after the Ali fight, 2 fights I guess, against a couple soft touches before the sanctioning body forced him to either fight Ali or Foreman. Being as Joe hated Ali so much, he chose Foreman.

I'm not saying Frazier could have beaten George, just that I wonder if on that night where he gave a once in a lifetime effort, maybe he could have. Ali really did take it out of him in that fight, even though he lost it. If you've seen that fight, both men took tons of punishment but Joe took more, ali never hit harder than he did in that fight, you could hear his punches on the film. He also threw way more punches than Joe and landed more, Joe landed the power punches and deservedly won the fight but it cost him.

In his bio, I believe right after the foreman fight, he mentions the writers said he was on the decline and in his own book, he admits it. That style of his doesn't allow for a long career.
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Well, if Frazier actually was damaged goods post-Ali 1, then that would mean Foreman & Ali both beat the diminished version since their respective wins over Frazier came afterwards.

Realistically lots of fighters have left a piece of themselves in the ring after tough fights. I'd also be skeptical that even the best version of Frazier could beat Foreman given how they matched up stylistically. From where I'm sitting, it appears that Foreman just had his number. Not only did he beat him both times he blew him out twice.
 
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I remember an interview where Lennox was describing sparring prime Tyson and said as the rounds went on he figured Tyson out more and more and took over while Cus was imploring Tyson to win because he would have to face Lennox for the title one day. To my mind its confirmation of what I already suspected - 80s Tyson being leagues above 90s Tyson is just post hoc rationalization fueled by the mainstream star power of Tyson. Lennox wins 9/10 times imo.
 
Kovalev's Man Bag said:
Well, if Frazier actually was damaged goods post-Ali 1, then that would mean Foreman & Ali both beat the diminished version since their respective wins over Frazier came afterwards.

Realistically lots of fighters have left a piece of themselves in the ring after tough fights. I'd also be skeptical that even the best version of Frazier could beat Foreman given how they matched up stylistically. From where I'm sitting, it appears that Foreman just had his number. Not only did he beat him both times he blew him out twice.
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The way it was, Ali beat Frazier the second time pretty convincingly and by the thrilla in manila, no one even expected Joe to come up with that kind of performance, no one. He was definitely thought of as being done. Norman Mailer said that Joe was "in small pieces" before the second fight because it was so soon after Foreman, but I really think Ali was in tip top shape for a brief period starting with the Norton loss, he trained hard for a few fights before he started slacking off again. So, the Norton 2 and Frazier 2 fights were amongst the very best of his second career, he would never come in 211-212 again.
 
If both fought prime-for-prime some of the same key tactics Lewis used in their 2002 fight would've still been applicable. From the very first round he was hanging off of Mike's neck, leaning on him, pushing his head down, and shoving him around the ring. Mike had no answer for his physicality. You could see it weakening his body by the round. If Mike was able to beat him in this hypothetical match-up then he'd only have a limited window of time to score the KO. I'd give Lewis 2/3 in a trilogy.
 
Prime Tyson is a nightmare for Lennox... too fast. Tyson's entire game was based on countering the lead jab against taller fighters.
 
djacobox372 said:
Prime Tyson is a nightmare for Lennox... too fast. Tyson's entire game was based on countering the lead jab against taller fighters.
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His speed won't mean too much when as soon as he closes the distance Lewis blankets him. Picking him off from range with his sharp jab and then nailing him with big uppercuts and hooks on the inside. Rinse & repeat.
 
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djacobox372 said:
You seem to think Lennox is athletic enough for such feats.. I disagree.
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He's athletic enough not that it would even come down to that. Mike has to get inside so all Lewis would have to do is time Mike's entries. Whether that means walking him into bombs or immediately clinching & smothering him would be his choice. He mixed it up and did both in their 2002 fight. These will always be options for Lewis since Mike is forced to give up all of the physical advantages. When skill is roughly equal it's the bigger man that will win more often than not.
 
Mike has to get inside so all Lewis would have to do is time Mike's entries.

Yeah, that's all, Mike is inside. Just time him - he'll wait, smdh...
SuwoopBangin said:
len-nox is the goat
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Living as an avid 80's boxing fan, no one was in Mike's league. No One.
 
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nonoob said:
Mike has to get inside so all Lewis would have to do is time Mike's entries.

Yeah, that's all, Mike is inside. Just time him - he'll wait, smdh...
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Exactly. As you can see below.


Here he walks Mike into a big uppercut, establishes head control, and then pushes him off like he's nothing. Just one example of Lewis utilizing his superior physicality, control & timing to neutralize Mike's tactics.
 
SuperLuigi said:
I remember an interview where Lennox was describing sparring prime Tyson and said as the rounds went on he figured Tyson out more and more and took over while Cus was imploring Tyson to win because he would have to face Lennox for the title one day. To my mind its confirmation of what I already suspected - 80s Tyson being leagues above 90s Tyson is just post hoc rationalization fueled by the mainstream star power of Tyson. Lennox wins 9/10 times imo.
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No, it's just sparring and Lennox's side of the story.

Come on son, 20 year old Tyson vs an aging Lennox Lewis? His feet we're too quick his weaving was too good. Iron Mike eats his ass alive and buries him mid rounds somewhere along the ropes.
 
mozfonky said:
Maybe, he would still have the championship intangibles. I just can't see how a guy who had most opponents stand in front of him and do no more than step in or out, i don't see how that would work against an Ali or a Holmes. Ali called Joe "shuffling" but what he meant was that he was what Angelo called a "two stepper" meaning they have to move in and stand before they punch, to beat some of these other guys he'd have to do a lot more punching as he's stepping in and chasing. Tyson wouldn't require that because Mike would be right in his face but these other guys? Again, Joe had more skills than just about any heavyweight I've ever seen but he had some things that would cause him problems against movers and guys who'd do more than stand in front of him.
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You don't think Joe Louis would have evolved his style if in a different era? I get Joe Louis was not exactly smartest man around lol but he had incredible in ring iq. I cannot see any version of Holmes ever beating Louis all things eqaul....... Alis a different story Ali got a legit chsnce as his ring IQ is unmatched. Maybe Tyson if he caught Louis in first 3 rounds with his blitz. And Maybe Foreman as he was just a monster. Lennox - Louis would be a terrible match up for him..
 
Prime Lewis's size, legs and jab aren't easy to overcome for Tyson IMO. He's a slight favorite to me.
 
Streeter said:
You don't think Joe Louis would have evolved his style if in a different era? I get Joe Louis was not exactly smartest man around lol but he had incredible in ring iq. I cannot see any version of Holmes ever beating Louis all things eqaul....... Alis a different story Ali got a legit chsnce as his ring IQ is unmatched. Maybe Tyson if he caught Louis in first 3 rounds with his blitz. And Maybe Foreman as he was just a monster. Lennox - Louis would be a terrible match up for him..
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Joe was a smart fighter, that's not the problem. Could he learn different techniques, yes he could. He already brought plenty to the table, power in both hands, great handspeed, near perfect fundamentals and his consistency. You don't go nearly 12 years as champ without some real discipline. He does have a few things working against him with modern heavies though, the size is one, the main one though, I keep saying is stylistic. He could adapt I suppose but he wouldn't be fighting sitting ducks.
 
Hagler said:
Prime Lewis's size, legs and jab aren't easy to overcome for Tyson IMO. He's a slight favorite to me.
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the craziest thing about Lewis to me was that arrogance, he knew he could be kayoed but he was still cocky as hell. You could see he was worried about the bomb in the tyson fight, Steward was too, you never saw Steward that pissed off in a corner as he was when he thought Lewis was laying back against mike, turns out his hand was hurt.
 
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