Prime Joe Louis vs Prime Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay)

[Kforcer]

On the topic of Eddie Futch, this is also the guy who trained Montell Griffin to give a prime Roy Jones jr. his only competitive fight, scoring a whopping 50% of his punches on the normally untouchable Jones jr. If I recall correctly, Griffin did not have Futch in his corner for the rematch. I guess there really is a case for Futch being the greatest trainer ever.

 

[deucesarewild]

As far as overall skill, I actually have Louis. His resume is deeper than people realize (not saying it trumps Frazier, Foreman, Norton).

But Louis doesn't have the style to beat Ali. Louis doesn't usually PRESS his guy. He methodically walks at them, but, even though he comes forward, he doesn't distress or overwhelm with his pressure. Tommy Hearns and Kovalev were aggressive but were not pressure fighters, and neither was Louis, really.

People will not agree, but I believe Rocky has a better style to frustrate and possibly beat Ali. Ali threw his uppercut poorly (it's what got him knocked down against Frazier). Rocky gets under taller guys and nails the body. Rocky is a solid puncher, and while Ali might be hard to hit with his upper body movement, Rocky hits everywhere so the body is there to be punched. Rocky had some awkward punches that were hard to predict and a lot of Ali's fast defense was built around his anticipation. Plus Rocky was impossible to discourage, stayed on you for the full 15 rounds, and had a gas tank and chin to carry him into the deep waters. I don't Ali could bully him off with power like Louis or Foreman could.

Not saying he is a lock to beat Ali, but Marciano is a better match to beat him than Louis.

Louis might be better suited to beat Rocky than he is to beat Ali. Louis was a compact puncher, murder with short shots, so Rocky would have a rough go against Louis from the 40's. Ali could clip Louis with rights over the jab all night. Louis stalked behind a jab he dropped.

 

[deucesarewild]

On the topic of Eddie Futch, this is also the guy who trained Montell Griffin to give a prime Roy Jones jr. his only competitive fight, scoring a whopping 50% of his punches on the normally untouchable Jones jr. If I recall correctly, Griffin did not have Futch in his corner for the rematch. I guess there really is a case for Futch being the greatest trainer ever.

Yes, Futch rocks. And that Griffin vs Jones 1 fight was awesome. Jones had better names on his resume in the 90s than people think.

Futch has a case but it's a tough line up. Dundee has some insane wins, too (over Futch guys, even). He is a big name who gets derided for his less active direct coaching aspect, but he gets his guys through in tight spots.

I might have a top 3 or 4 but in no order.

 

[deucesarewild]

Cus said that Ali would eventually "plant his feet" and Louis would catch him. Ive heard this "as soon as ali plants his feet!" theory perpetuated by bert sugar as well. I think it was during the ESPN Classic specials with Brian Kenny.

Ive always felt this assessment was wrong. I think even a young ali who goes stationary for a few seconds is still faster than joe. Plus louis struggled with movers like Ali. I think the fight looks like the billy conn fight except that Ali wouldn't give it away at the end and might finish Louis himself.

Billy Conn was also the smaller guy, coming up from LHW. A shame Conn's career is typified by his Louis loss. A good big guy beats a good little guy, except that had Conn kept fighting like the little guy, he would have won on the cards. So, styles matter a ton.

Louis had that demeanor and sharp punch that you could never sleep on. Ali has been floored by more limited men than Louis.

I just don't know, my man, I just felt like commenting on Conn and then thought I'd bring it back to the TS topic.

 

[mozfonky]

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner021908.htm
Here's a nice piece on Eddie Futch, I guess he did throw Sugar Ray Robinson out of his gym when he was a kid, no reason given as to why. Probably just because he was being a kid.

I was trying to find the interview he gave shortly before his death on his opinion changing on Ali-Louis, I think it was online but I'm not sure. Either way, his rationale for Louis beating Ali was that Joe was a skillful boxer, as I've said, that's not the style Ali would have troubles with. Certain things Ali never had problems with, big guys, even monster punchers, tall guys, tall fast guys, but the record shows he had issues with guys you wouldn't expect him too, smaller men, smaller and quicker men, smaller, shorter men with left hooks. Some people still think Ali didn't deserve the Doug Jones fight.

 

[Breakfast Bar]

Ali fans always claim that in his prime he was super fast and 215 pounds. He was both of those things, but never at the same time.

Louis was more technically sound and patient and I think that gives him a slight edge down the stretch.

 

[Breakfast Bar]

If Conn had ran for the 13th round (when he got KOd) and the next two rounds, he would have lost a majority decision. The three judges had it tied, Conn up by 2 and Conn up by 3 after 12 rounds. Similar to Meldrick Taylor blowing out Chavez before the KO, the narrative after the fact made the KO seem more dramatic than the reality as both fights were close.

 

[mozfonky]

Ali fans always claim that in his prime he was super fast and 215 pounds. He was both of those things, but never at the same time.
.
Louis was more technically sound and patient and I think that gives him a slight edge down the stretch.

He was probably 220 when the smaller, presumably, should have been used to more speed, lhw bob foster said he couldn't see ali's punches coming, his corner wisely suggested he jab with him, he cut ali and hurt him more than a lot of bigger men did. But he came out of it shocked at ali's speed, saying that he had no right to be that fast

 

[Fluffernutter]

ya, amazing how all those legends crossed paths too, it wasn't like boxing was a small sport back then, it was popular. Ray used to carry Joe's bags to the gym, crazy, what are the odds that two of the greatest to ever do it would have met at the start?

I seem to remember Ray and Joe were quite close.

In the military, Ray got in trouble for fighting on a bus full of soldiers. Ray was going to spend some time in the base's jail. But, Joe called POTUS. The issue went away.

 

[Badr Hari]

Some people still think Ali didn't deserve the Doug Jones fight.

Never understood people who claimed that. Ali clearly won that contest.

 

[mozfonky]

I seem to remember Ray and Joe were quite close.

In the military, Ray got in trouble for fighting on a bus full of soldiers. Ray was going to spend some time in the base's jail. But, Joe called POTUS. The issue went away.

ya, different men though, Ray pretty much dodged the war and Louis was a symbol for it. One touching story about their closeness is when Marciano kayoed Joe, Ray approached the ring with tears in his eyes and as soon as it was over held him and said, "you're alright Joe".

 

[revoltub]

could be, tyson loved to lift quotes and even in the ring actions from old fighters. The "screamed like a woman" that mike said about Biggs was often used to describe Max Schmeling's reaction to the Joe Louis bodypunch in the the rematch. Tyson would even steal quotes from movies, after Bruno he said "how dare they challenge me with their somewhat primitives skills" . Wallace Matthews who hated mike at the time said it came out of a superman movie.

"You can run, but you can't hide"

- Kenny Florian

 

[CodeBreaker]

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner021908.htm
Here's a nice piece on Eddie Futch, I guess he did throw Sugar Ray Robinson out of his gym when he was a kid, no reason given as to why. Probably just because he was being a kid.

I was trying to find the interview he gave shortly before his death on his opinion changing on Ali-Louis, I think it was online but I'm not sure. Either way, his rationale for Louis beating Ali was that Joe was a skillful boxer, as I've said, that's not the style Ali would have troubles with. Certain things Ali never had problems with, big guys, even monster punchers, tall guys, tall fast guys, but the record shows he had issues with guys you wouldn't expect him too, smaller men, smaller and quicker men, smaller, shorter men with left hooks. Some people still think Ali didn't deserve the Doug Jones fight.

you mean Ali gonna have problems with Tyson?

 

[mozfonky]

you mean Ali gonna have problems with Tyson?

Tyson would have a lot more with him, but tyson is small and quick but lacked the stamina to make it a frazier type of fight.

 

[Kforcer]

If Conn had ran for the 13th round (when he got KOd) and the next two rounds, he would have lost a majority decision. The three judges had it tied, Conn up by 2 and Conn up by 3 after 12 rounds. Similar to Meldrick Taylor blowing out Chavez before the KO, the narrative after the fact made the KO seem more dramatic than the reality as both fights were close.

If I recall, one of the judges' scorecards in Taylor-Chavez was way, way off and not reflective of the fight. I'd have to watch again. I basically agree regarding Conn-Louis though. As an aside, Conn's overall ability as a fighter has become vastly underestimated by fans as the years have gone on.

Something else that I think is underrated is Joe Louis's destruction of the great John Henry Lewis. The man was a terrific fighter and even if his eyesight was apparently giving him problems, the fact is that Joe Louis blew out a Hall of Famer in a single round.

 

[TheGreatA]

If I recall, one of the judges' scorecards in Taylor-Chavez was way, way off and not reflective of the fight. I'd have to watch again. I basically agree regarding Conn-Louis though. As an aside, Conn's overall ability as a fighter has become vastly underestimated by fans as the years have gone on.

Something else that I think is underrated is Joe Louis's destruction of the great John Henry Lewis. The man was a terrific fighter and even if his eyesight was apparently giving him problems, the fact is that Joe Louis blew out a Hall of Famer in a single round.

Even with Lewis's condition, the way the fight went kind of suggests that it was probably never going to be a match, even with Lewis at 100%. Louis just over-powered him, walked right through him and shook him badly with every punch he threw.

It's hard to imagine what Lewis could've done to prevent that from happening.

It was probably the closest to a "Tyson fight" that Louis ever had. He seemed extra-motivated to destroy Lewis as quickly as possible.

A lot of times Louis held himself back, perhaps because the optics of him brutalizing a white man would've been bad (except when he did it against Schmeling, the German). Difficult to say.

He did have the potential to just pulverize his opponents, though.

 

[TheGreatA]

Never understood people who claimed that. Ali clearly won that contest.

The Doug Jones fight kind of suggests that atleast the early version of Ali, would've had a lot of problems with Joe Louis.

Doug Jones basically patterned himself after Joe Louis's style, except he was smaller and he didn't have the power.

Another guy who had some similarities to Louis, was Zora Folley, but Folley was old when Ali fought him. Still landed some decent counters though, but he had the punch resistance of a flyweight by that point in his career.

 

[Kforcer]

Even with Lewis's condition, the way the fight went kind of suggests that it was probably never going to be a match, even with Lewis at 100%. Louis just over-powered him, walked right through him and shook him badly with every punch he threw.

The thing is, sort of like Frazier, even with the eyesight issue, he was still one of the very, very best in the world. Sure, Louis crushed him, but Lewis was beating top light heavyweights and heavyweights up until the end; clearly, even with his eyesight problem, he was a great fighter. Would he have been even better with better eyesight? Sure, but he was still better than almost anyone else even with his issues.