Prime Joe Louis vs Prime Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay)

[Fluffernutter]

So did Cus D'Amato and I believe, Teddy Atlas IIRC. Tyson thought Ali would win but said Louis was his favorite fighter. George Foreman said that in his list of top heavyweights, Louis was number one and whoever filled out the rest of the spots, they were a ways below him.

I think if Futch, the guy that created the game plan for both Frazier and Norton to beat Ali, he knows what he is talking about.

Plus, Eddie was a sparing partner for Louis for much of his career.

What do you think his game plan would be for Bowe if Riddick fought Ali?

 

[Virtually Identical]

I assumed he meant this fantasy match could be before he changed his name.

I was aware of that lol just being a dick. I do believe Ali jabs his face off though

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Ali was too mobile, had too good of a chin, too much stamina at his best. I keep mentioning his stamina as perhaps his greatest strength and no one ever gets it, a man that throws twice as many punches as the other man has an advantage.

oh, i get it.
Ali had everything to an elite level except power.
He could outwork, outmove and outgrind basically anyone in his prime. His chin is probably close to Chuvalo’s.
He was custom built to outlast punchers.

 

[Kforcer]

I think if Futch, the guy that created the game plan for both Frazier and Norton to beat Ali, he knows what he is talking about.

Plus, Eddie was a sparing partner for Louis for much of his career.

Good points. I actually didn't know Futch was a sparring partner for Louis. That's amazing. I guess it makes sense because they're both Detroit guys. I just had no idea. Is that how they met, do you know? Because I recall the story that Futch kicked Walker Smith out of a Detroit gym his pre-Sugar Ray Robinson days.

What do you think his game plan would be for Bowe if Riddick fought Ali?

That's an interesting one. I was just watching Bowe versus Tyrell Biggs, where Biggs actually did pretty well. Biggs, like Ali, boxed and moved, which is not to say he on Ali's level. Sonny Liston, like Bowe, had a great jab and vast power, and Ali dealt with him, although not at all easily the first time around. I would guess that Bowe, the bigger man with the longer reach, would try and keep Ali at range and try to nail him coming in. Futch might want Bowe to try and bully Ali, but it seems like that would give Ali more opportunities to dance around Bowe and score on him, like he did to Liston in the first round. It'd be an interesting fight.

 

[mozfonky]

Joe Louis was a lot faster than people seem to be giving him credit for, especially if you are strictly talking about hand-speed. Also, let us recall that Louis cut weight in the Conn fight, unnecessarily, in order to make it seem more even and acceptable in the eyes of the public. He came in at around 200 for Billy Conn, which was totally unnecessary and may have made him a bit more sluggish.

The truth is that it wouldn't be an easy night for either man; both would have to bring their A-game and stay on it for the full 12 or 15 rounds. Ali never faced anyone with Joe Louis's ring intelligence, timing, accuracy and power. Louis seized on opportunities ruthlessly and suddenly and his best punches were extremely short, straight and fast. Though he stalked his opponents, he was a counter-puncher, who basically steered people into attacking him and giving him the opportunity to capitalize. Would he be able to trap Ali? Hard to say. Ali was also a brilliant boxer. But I do think he showed that he could become frustrated and emotional during fights, which can't be said of Louis during his title reign. Both men have clear routes to victory--Ali would have to stick and move without getting caught, Louis would have to catch Ali coming in.

Whoever won or lost this fight, it would probably look a lot easier to spectators than it actually was for the victor to pull off. It would be the sort of fight with no margin for error.

joe wasn't slow with his hands, not at all, it's his footwork that would be the problem as well as being what Angelo Dundee called "a two stepper" meaning that he'd generally move into punching range set, then punch, Ali would be gone everytime he'd do that. It wasn't just conn that Joe had problems with, walcott was a slickster too (and may even be a tougher fight for peak Ali) . You can't underestimate greatness, Joe deserves his props but I only see it going a few ways and none of them include Joe kayoing Ali, so, how would Joe outpoint Ali? because that is the only way he'd win. Joe wasn't the swarmer type, he was a boxer puncher, not the kind of style that Ali had issues with.

 

[mozfonky]

Eddie Futch said Louis would win.

he did, but sometime shortly before he died, he changed his mind in one interview, i might have it somewhere.

 

[mozfonky]

Good points. I actually didn't know Futch was a sparring partner for Louis. That's amazing. I guess it makes sense because they're both Detroit guys. I just had no idea. Is that how they met, do you know? Because I recall the story that Futch kicked Walker Smith out of a Detroit gym his pre-Sugar Ray Robinson days.



That's an interesting one. I was just watching Bowe versus Tyrell Biggs, where Biggs actually did pretty well. Biggs, like Ali, boxed and moved, which is not to say he on Ali's level. Sonny Liston, like Bowe, had a great jab and vast power, and Ali dealt with him, although not at all easily the first time around. I would guess that Bowe, the bigger man with the longer reach, would try and keep Ali at range and try to nail him coming in. Futch might want Bowe to try and bully Ali, but it seems like that would give Ali more opportunities to dance around Bowe and score on him, like he did to Liston in the first round. It'd be an interesting fight.

futch told a story to a writer, as he was sitting with an ailing Joe Louis who they both assumed was asleep, Futch recounted how he was able to pull a move on Joe and land his left hook, so, one day, they were sparring and futch did the maneuver and Joe stayed still, Futch asked what he was doing, Joe said he wanted to see how he landed that "flukey left hook" Futch told him that he couldn't hurt him so why worry, Joe told him that if he could land it, someone who could hurt him could also, Futch responded by saying that as long as he was sparring with Joe he'd never tell him. At this point, the present day Joe, who actually was awake laughed.

 

[Kforcer]

joe wasn't slow with his hands, not at all, it's his footwork that would be the problem as well as being what Angelo Dundee called "a two stepper" meaning that he'd generally move into punching range set, then punch, Ali would be gone everytime he'd do that. It wasn't just conn that Joe had problems with, walcott was a slickster too (and may even be a tougher fight for peak Ali) . You can't underestimate greatness, Joe deserves his props but I only see it going a few ways and none of them include Joe kayoing Ali, so, how would Joe outpoint Ali? because that is the only way he'd win. Joe wasn't the swarmer type, he was a boxer puncher, not the kind of style that Ali had issues with.

I could definitely see Louis KO'ing Ali; if you were human, Joe Louis could hurt you. And if Louis could hurt you, he could finish you. And that is not diminishing Ali's legendary chin at all. But Joe Louis was a special sort of puncher and finisher. If Louis got to Ali, I'd assume it would be off of a counter, which I don't think is out of the realm of possibility at all. Unlike a Liston, Louis wouldn't get frustrated with Ali. He'd stay calm and look for his opportunity.

That's not to say I'd count Ali out, but I wouldn't count out Louis either.

 

[toogreen]

unpopular opinion but Louis KOs Ali

 

[Kforcer]

futch told a story to a writer, as he was sitting with an ailing Joe Louis who they both assumed was asleep, Futch recounted how he was able to pull a move on Joe and land his left hook, so, one day, they were sparring and futch did the maneuver and Joe stayed still, Futch asked what he was doing, Joe said he wanted to see how he landed that "flukey left hook" Futch told him that he couldn't hurt him so why worry, Joe told him that if he could land it, someone who could hurt him could also, Futch responded by saying that as long as he was sparring with Joe he'd never tell him. At this point, the present day Joe, who actually was awake laughed.

Wow, that's an amazing story. That's so cool that a guy who sparred with Louis went on to train Joe Frazier and Riddick Bowe, among others. That's kind of like Blackburn sparring Jack Johnson and then going onto train Joe Louis, although my understanding is that Blackburn and Johnson didn't spar all that many times.

 

[mozfonky]

Wow, that's an amazing story. That's so cool that a guy who sparred with Louis went on to train Joe Frazier and Riddick Bowe, among others. That's kind of like Blackburn sparring Jack Johnson and then going onto train Joe Louis, although my understanding is that Blackburn and Johnson didn't spar all that many times.

ya, amazing how all those legends crossed paths too, it wasn't like boxing was a small sport back then, it was popular. Ray used to carry Joe's bags to the gym, crazy, what are the odds that two of the greatest to ever do it would have met at the start?

 

[djacobox372]

Mismatch, Ali would destroy him.

WTF is louis going to do, knock ali out? good luck.

 

[Kforcer]

Mismatch, Ali would destroy him.

WTF is louis going to do, knock ali out? good luck.

Outpoint him, maybe. Destroy him...? I certainly don't see that happening.

 

[Kforcer]

ya, amazing how all those legends crossed paths too, it wasn't like boxing was a small sport back then, it was popular. Ray used to carry Joe's bags to the gym, crazy, what are the odds that two of the greatest to ever do it would have met at the start?

That is amazing. Ray's time in Detroit, even if it was relatively brief, really adds to the whole mystique of the city as a place that produces boxing legends. Do you know if the story about Futch kicking a young Ray out of the gym is legitimate? Or is that more of an urban legend?

 

[mozfonky]

That is amazing. Ray's time in Detroit, even if it was relatively brief, really adds to the whole mystique of the city as a place that produces boxing legends. Do you know if the story about Futch kicking a young Ray out of the gym is legitimate? Or is that more of an urban legend?

i think i've read that somewhere, not sure if it's true or not. from what i recall, ray didn't actually train until he went to NY and even then, if his own account is to be trusted, he didn't show much promise at first.

 

[TheGreatA]

joe wasn't slow with his hands, not at all, it's his footwork that would be the problem as well as being what Angelo Dundee called "a two stepper" meaning that he'd generally move into punching range set, then punch, Ali would be gone everytime he'd do that. It wasn't just conn that Joe had problems with, walcott was a slickster too (and may even be a tougher fight for peak Ali) . You can't underestimate greatness, Joe deserves his props but I only see it going a few ways and none of them include Joe kayoing Ali, so, how would Joe outpoint Ali? because that is the only way he'd win. Joe wasn't the swarmer type, he was a boxer puncher, not the kind of style that Ali had issues with.

Even an old Joe managed to KO Walcott though.

Louis was a great finisher. Under the right circumstances, he could have KOd anybody.

Ali did eventually prove to have a great chin, but he didn't necessarily display that side of himself in the 60s. Mostly because he didn't have to.

He did get rocked to his boots by Henry Cooper though. And was always vulnerable to a left hook.

Louis in his prime had a great one. He was a much better puncher, skillwise, than Liston, Folley, Chuvalo, etc. And even Chuvalo got his digs in.

I'd expect Louis to be one of the biggest KO threats that Ali ever faced in his career. Unlike Shavers and Foreman, he had finesse. He was polished. And patient.

Ali, knowing that, might actually go for a finish. He wouldn't want Louis to hang around for 15 rounds, knowing he carried power even into the late rounds.

The thing that's always underestimated about Louis in head to head match-ups, is that it only took one punch for him. He was that good at finishing. Walcott was styling on him for 15 rounds, and then another 10 rounds in the rematch, and one good shot, followed by a finishing combination by Louis, an older, slower Louis, ended him. Even though Walcott seemingly had his number.

If anybody had a puncher's chance against Ali, it was Joe Louis.

 

[mozfonky]

Even an old Joe managed to KO Walcott though.

Louis was a great finisher. Under the right circumstances, he could have KOd anybody.

Ali did eventually prove to have a great chin, but he didn't necessarily display that side of himself in the 60s. Mostly because he didn't have to.

He did get rocked to his boots by Henry Cooper though. And was always vulnerable to a left hook.

Louis in his prime had a great one. He was a much better puncher, skillwise, than Liston, Folley, Chuvalo, etc. And even Chuvalo got his digs in.

I'd expect Louis to be one of the biggest KO threats that Ali ever faced in his career. Unlike Shavers and Foreman, he had finesse. He was polished. And patient.

Ali, knowing that, might actually go for a finish. He wouldn't want Louis to hang around for 15 rounds, knowing he carried power even into the late rounds.

The thing that's always underestimated about Louis in head to head match-ups, is that it only took one punch for him. He was that good at finishing. Walcott was styling on him for 15 rounds, and then another 10 rounds in the rematch, and one good shot, followed by a finishing combination by Louis, an older, slower Louis, ended him. Even though Walcott seemingly had his number.

If anybody had a puncher's chance against Ali, it was Joe Louis.

The style Ali had the most trouble with were smaller, quicker men and of course men with good left hooks. He had problems with Frazier who was the perfect style to give him trouble, as you mention, Chuvalo did better than a lot of people remember against Ali in both fights. Norton gave him problems because he was quick and he had a strange style so he's a little bit of an anomaly. Spinks was in the mold of guys who would give Ali problems and he caught Ali when he couldn't put up much of a fight. Lots of guys had good rounds and good moments against ali, patterson, foster, lyle. One thing about Ali is that he didn't take the sport as seriously as he should have, I think it worked both ways, when high pressure fights like frazier or foreman came along, he wasn't even close to being overwhelmed by the moment but on the other hand, him goofing off got him caught by Cooper and lost him a lot of rounds later in his career. Joe had one thing over just about any other great fighter, he was known to stay on top of his training, give or take a rumor or two, he was generally one of the most consistent champions ever, the 11 mos and change holding the title is no accident.

Joe maximized what he had more than Ali did I think. I still think ali makes it an easy decision win in his 60's prime. Joe wasn't the frazier, chuvalo type. And Ali also had layers to go through to even get him into trouble, first, in the sixties it was his marvelous movement and defense, in the seventies it was his inhuman toughness and total refusal to be kayoed. Frazier should have kayoed him in the first fight, hurt him many times, knocked him down once and had him wobbling like a drunk in the eleventh. Alis' reaction to the 15th round knockdown? He gets up at 3 and goes on to win the rest of the round, even taking a couple more vicious shots, the dude was special.

 

[defjaam]

It's ironic but one of Ali's best lines, "if you dream you beat me you better wake up and apologize" probably came from a scene as described by Billy Conn. Ali walks up to Joe who was visiting with Billy, mentions that he had a dream that he beat Louis, Louis responded, "Listen Boy! If you even dreamt it, you should apologize". I've heard the story told a couple different ways but the sentiment was the same. Ali would use the line against Jimmy Ellis and others.

I think a quote that a lot of people credit Mike Tyson for ("Everybodys got a plan until they get punched...") also goes back to Joe Louis or Jack Blackburn. And Tyson basically just used that quote. At least I remember reading it a long time ago.

Generally most knowledge that got passed on in the following decades (and still today) has its roots in the 1930s.
Although the style used by Mayweather is even older and goes back to the 19th century.

 

[mozfonky]

I think a quote that a lot of people credit Mike Tyson for ("Everybodys got a plan until they get punched...") also goes back to Joe Louis or Jack Blackburn. And Tyson basically just used that quote. At least I remember reading it a long time ago.

Generally most knowledge that got passed on in the following decades (and still today) has its roots in the 1930s.
Although the style used by Mayweather is even older and goes back to the 19th century.

could be, tyson loved to lift quotes and even in the ring actions from old fighters. The "screamed like a woman" that mike said about Biggs was often used to describe Max Schmeling's reaction to the Joe Louis bodypunch in the the rematch. Tyson would even steal quotes from movies, after Bruno he said "how dare they challenge me with their somewhat primitives skills" . Wallace Matthews who hated mike at the time said it came out of a superman movie.

 

[defjaam]

The style Ali had the most trouble with were smaller, quicker men and of course men with good left hooks. He had problems with Frazier who was the perfect style to give him trouble, as you mention, Chuvalo did better than a lot of people remember against Ali in both fights. Norton gave him problems because he was quick and he had a strange style so he's a little bit of an anomaly. Spinks was in the mold of guys who would give Ali problems and he caught Ali when he couldn't put up much of a fight. Lots of guys had good rounds and good moments against ali, patterson, foster, lyle. One thing about Ali is that he didn't take the sport as seriously as he should have, I think it worked both ways, when high pressure fights like frazier or foreman came along, he wasn't even close to being overwhelmed by the moment but on the other hand, him goofing off got him caught by Cooper and lost him a lot of rounds later in his career. Joe had one thing over just about any other great fighter, he was known to stay on top of his training, give or take a rumor or two, he was generally one of the most consistent champions ever, the 11 mos and change holding the title is no accident.

Joe maximized what he had more than Ali did I think. I still think ali makes it an easy decision win in his 60's prime. Joe wasn't the frazier, chuvalo type. And Ali also had layers to go through to even get him into trouble, first, in the sixties it was his marvelous movement and defense, in the seventies it was his inhuman toughness and total refusal to be kayoed. Frazier should have kayoed him in the first fight, hurt him many times, knocked him down once and had him wobbling like a drunk in the eleventh. Alis' reaction to the 15th round knockdown? He gets up at 3 and goes on to win the rest of the round, even taking a couple more vicious shots, the dude was special.

Eddie Futch shobuld be mentioned. He was the trainer of Frazier & Norton. And Jack Blackburn would have him spar Joe Louis on a regular basis where he picked up most of his knowledge in the 1930s.
I'm sure that Futch as a trainer and Louis as a fighter would come up with something and give Ali a hard fight. He just knew how to work Ali's weak spots, and there were quite a few that he had.

Ali at the end of his career (or maybe it was somewhen after his career when he was visibly sick) whispered to Futch "You caused me a lot of trouble old man".
And he was right... Without Futch, Ali maybe retires undefeated. Can you imagine the Rumble in the Jungle with Futch in Georges corner? Totally different fight, maybe outcome.