Law POTWR 2019 Vol 4: Repeal Or Respect The 2nd Amendment?

[Cubo de Sangre]

No one is taxing a right, but the purchase of guns and ammunition, which are not a right.

Keeping and bearing requires acquiring. Purchasing is absolutely a right.

 

[spamking]

@Fawlty was doing okay and then had to bring up a registry . . . dude.

I'm fine with the government knowing I own guns . . . just not which ones or how many. If they want me to get a gun owners permit that proves to my fellow man I'm NOT a prohibited possessor that's fine. Just don't make me undergo another background check for a purchase. Yes, even though I'm an FFL as a single member LLC I still need to complete a 4473 for transfer to my private collection.

 

[Greoric]

@Fawlty was doing okay and then had to bring up a registry . . . dude.

I'm fine with the government knowing I own guns . . . just not which ones or how many. If they want me to get a gun owners permit that proves to my fellow man I'm NOT a prohibited possessor that's fine. Just don't make me undergo another background check for a purchase. Yes, even though I'm an FFL as a single member LLC I still need to complete a 4473 for transfer to my private collection.

Does the DOJ, FBI, ATF, or whoever take stock of those 4473's?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Does the DOJ, FBI, ATF, or whoever take stock of those 4473's?

My understanding is they remain in the FFL's possession so long as the business is licensed. After that they need to be shipped to the ATF where they sit in boxes in storage containers. If only a lit cigarette were left unattended.

 

[Greoric]

My understanding is they remain in the FFL's possession so long as the business is licensed. After that they need to be shipped to the ATF where they sit in boxes in storage containers. If only a lit cigarette were left unattended.

Oh shit. Really? GD, they pretty much have a registry then.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Oh shit. Really? GD, they pretty much have a registry then.

Yes and no. I imagine finding something would be the proverbial needle in a haystack. Plus, there's a ton or records in the possession of current FFL's. Even if the information was organized, ATF would still have a very incomplete picture.

 

[Greoric]

Yes and no. I imagine finding something would be the proverbial needle in a haystack. Plus, there's a ton or records in the possession of current FFL's. Even if the information was organized, ATF would still have a very incomplete picture.

Those are all paper copies, right? I don't imagine its that much trouble to put those in digital form and produce a database.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Those are all paper copies, right? I don't imagine its that much trouble to put those in digital form and produce a database.

They are paper. There's also a law that says the feds can't create a registry. The ATF can't even approve tax stamps in under six months. Can't imagine how long it would take to catalog all those records. Lots of dead people would have guns registered to them.

 

[Greoric]

They are paper. There's also a law that says the feds can't create a registry. The ATF can't even approve tax stamps in under six months. Can't imagine how long it would take to catalog all those records. Lots of dead people would have guns registered to them.

"A law".

There's also a constitutionally recognized right that we should be secure in our paper and effects.... annnnnnd the Patriot Act.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

"A law".

There's also a constitutionally recognized right that we should be secure in our paper and effects.... annnnnnd the Patriot Act.

I believe it was part of the same law that gave us full-auto bans. And technically those forms aren't our papers.

 

[Greoric]

I believe it was part of the same law that gave us full-auto bans. And technically those forms aren't our papers.

I get you. The 4A reference was more out of a point to show how much the state actually cares about restricting itself to its own laws.

 

[spamking]

Does the DOJ, FBI, ATF, or whoever take stock of those 4473's?

Only in the event of needing the information to support an investigation or if I no longer wish to maintain my FFL. But outside of that FFLs aren't sending reports to anyone that lists who bought what unless it meets the requirements of the multiple handgun purchase report.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/discontinue-being-federal-firearms-licensee-ffl

When an FFL discontinues business, the FFL must send their firearms transactions records to the National Tracing Center (NTC). The NTC receives an average of 1.2 million out-of-business records per month and is the only repository for these records within the United States.

Records can be mailed to the NTC or, alternatively, they may be delivered to your local ATF Office in order to comply with laws for surrendering records (which include all bound log books/acquisition & disposition books and computer printouts, ATF Form 4473’s, Theft/Loss Reports, Multiple Sales Reports, and Brady forms).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-long-are-licensees-required-maintain-atf-forms-4473

Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.129(b)]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-12/download

Section 12.7 Record retention period. The regulations provided under the NFA, specifically 27 CFR 479.131, provide that the retention periods for required records shall be in conformity with the requirements specified under Part 478. As provided by Part 478:
(1) Records of firearms transactions maintained by licensed importers and licensed manufacturers must maintain permanent records of the importation, manufacture, or other acquisition of firearms.197
(2) Licensed importer’s and manufacturer’s records of sales or other disposition of firearms over the age of 20 years may be discarded.198
(3) The A & D Records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors over 20 years of age may be discarded.
(4) All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.199
(5) Licensees are also required to retain the ATF Form 3310.4, Multiple Sales or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, as well as ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report, for a period of not less than 5 years.200
(6) Retention of the records relating to transactions in semi-automatic assault weapons must be retained for a period not less 5 years

198 27 CFR 478.129(a); 478.129(d)
199 27 CFR 478.129(b)
200 27 CFR 478.129(c)

 

[Greoric]

Only in the event of needing the information to support an investigation or if I no longer wish to maintain my FFL. But outside of that FFLs aren't sending reports to anyone that lists who bought what unless it meets the requirements of the multiple handgun purchase report.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/discontinue-being-federal-firearms-licensee-ffl



https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-long-are-licensees-required-maintain-atf-forms-4473



https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-12/download

All in one location???

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

All in one location???

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/10/27/firearms-national-tracing-center-atf/74401060/

Officials estimate that 1.6 million paper documents and other records arrive every month from defunct firearm dealers who are required to ship their business records, some barely discernible, to this Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives facility for eventual inclusion in a digital repository.

Troppman said there is no uniform method for delivering gun purchase records from defunct businesses. Consequently, some arrive in the form of bundled hand-printed index cards, on tracing paper, in weathered notebooks and on password-protected hard-drives that appear to have been hastily swept off shop counters and into boxes before the dealers shuttered their doors.

"In some of the boxes, we have found garbage and dirty laundry,'' he said.

Ben Hayes, a former ATF official who for more than a decade oversaw parts of the tracing center's operations, characterized the ever-mounting caches of paper and the archaic records system as something resembling the aftermath of a biblical flood.

If the out-of-business dealer's records have been converted to the ATF's electronic database, examiners can attempt to locate purchasers by tabbing through digital folders organized by former dealer names and then sort through individual sales records to identify individual buyers.

But thousands of trace requests each year — as many as 18,000 last year, according to the ATF — require document examiners to hand-sort through unprocessed boxes of paper records or attempt to unlock the password-protected hard-drives of newly received computerized documents to establish a gun's chain of custody. Still hundreds of other requests require examiners to search a darkened library containing 50,000 rolls of microfilm, a repository for tens of millions of purchase records.

 

[Higus]

@Fawlty was doing okay and then had to bring up a registry . . . dude.

I'm fine with the government knowing I own guns . . . just not which ones or how many. If they want me to get a gun owners permit that proves to my fellow man I'm NOT a prohibited possessor that's fine. Just don't make me undergo another background check for a purchase. Yes, even though I'm an FFL as a single member LLC I still need to complete a 4473 for transfer to my private collection.

Without even researching, I would bet that Google has an algorithm that can tell if a person owns a gun or not, and that information can be sold to private companies.

 

[spamking]

All in one location???

I don't know how many locations the NTC uses to store records.

 

[Greoric]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/10/27/firearms-national-tracing-center-atf/74401060/

LOL at packaged with dirty laundry. Love it.

 

[spamking]

Without even researching, I would bet that Google has an algorithm that can tell if a person owns a gun or not, and that information can be sold to private companies.

Simply knowing someone owns a gun is one thing . . . and fine as far as I'm concerned. Heck, most search engines already do that and use those analytics to cater ads to us as it is now.

But anything above that fact is too invasive for my liking.

 

[cleetus]

One of the poll choices should’ve been to repeal SOME of the frivolous laws and expand gun rights.

There’s no good reason I have to be limited to a 10rd mag or not allowed to have a collapsible stock or flash suppressor on my rifle.

 

[Higus]

Simply knowing someone owns a gun is one thing . . . and fine as far as I'm concerned. Heck, most search engines already do that and use those analytics to cater ads to us as it is now.

But anything above that fact is too invasive for my liking.

So you are okay with the information being available, just not being actionable? It's kind of inevitable that the information will be abused at some point.