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Law POTWR 2019 Vol 4: Repeal Or Respect The 2nd Amendment?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Cubo de Sangre, Feb 18, 2019.

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Which option is closets to how you feel about the 2nd Amendment?

  1. Repeal it and outlaw all firearms

  2. Repeal it and allow everything but semi-automatics

  3. Keep it and the laws as they currently stand

  4. Keep it and allow more restrictions and prohibitions that appeal to popular sentiment

  5. Remove all restrictions on the law-abiding because "shall not be infringed" means exactly that

  6. The best hookers are Russian

  7. Un-incorporate it, end all federal prohibitions, and states can decide

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Titanium Belt

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    Greetings War Room Sherbros,

    Welcome to the next installment of the Presidential sticky-threads. This one will be centered around your views on the 2nd Amendment. Should it be repealed altogether, infringed upon somewhat, or adhered to without compromise? Let's hear what you think. Special thanks to @nhbbear for kicking things off here.

    Cheers,

    Cubo

    ***This is an ongoing series of sticky-threads that will take on various topics in varying ways. If you're interested in leading a discussion on something please take a look at this thread and then send me a PM with your ideas.

    POTWR 2019 Vol 1: Shots Fired! Examining Police Shootings In America
    POTWR 2019 Vol 2: Happy Happy Joy Joy
    POTWR 2019 Vol 3: Examining Opioid Addiction In America
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  2. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    Hello, my name is Kevin, and I have been a police officer for sixteen years in a city of 30,000. In the immediate area of the city, there is approximately 150,000 people. My department has over 30,000 calls per year, and we average 3 murders and 20+ shootings per year. We also average 12 overdoses per week, and have 13 deaths on average, every year, from heroin.


    I have been a supervisor for the last 8 years, with the last two as a lieutenant in charge of a shift of 16 officers. In addition to running my shift, I am also a district commander in charge of an area of 15,000 citizens. Before I became a supervisor, I was the defensive tactics instructor for the department for ten years. I was also a taser instructor for ten years. I am considered a use of force expert, and have testified and given depositions for court proceedings regarding the use of force by officers.



    Enough about me, on to the topic of the day: The second amendment. I hope everyone can recognize, and respect the strongly held opinions of others of this polarizing topic. I hope we can have a candid discussion on the topic of addiction, and I appreciate your participation in this discussion.


    I want to that Cubo for hosting this discussion and thank the other participants for their input as well.



    Thanks, Kevin aka bear
     
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  3. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    America has had a love affair with guns. They are involved in almost every facet of our society. Everything from education to politics involve some aspect, or discussion, about guns. Do we arm the teachers; do we permit students at state universities to carry; what do we do about school shootings, of which there have been at least 290 school shootings since 2014. There have already been 19 school shootings in 2019, which shows that we have a serious problem.


    As for mass shootings, defined as an event in which 4 or more people are shot during a single incident. There were 345 mass shootings in 2017, which was the deadliest year with a total of 461 people. In one incident alone, deemed the worst mass shooting in US history, on October 1, 2017, 58 people were killed and over 500 injured in the Las Vegas shooting at a concert at a casino, which eclipsed the former title holder, which was the Pulse nightclub shooting in 2016, which left 49 people dead.


    There were 340 mass shootings in 2018, and already 28 mass shootings in 2019 with 36 killed and 92 injured, and we are not even 2 months into the new year.


    Aside from mass shootings, there were 15,290 killed in 2017, with over 61,000 injured from gun violence. Many cities record gun violence incidents that have not been seen since the 1990s, which was the bloodiest decade since the 60s. The violence in the 60s was the bloodied decade since the prohibition era in the 20s, where rival crime syndicates competed for control of the liquor trade.


    A brief look at gun violence in the US



    Police officers respond to thousands of murders, and many times that number in shootings that do not result in deaths. As a society, we focus on only the murders, especially mass shootings, while ignoring the number of shootings, or shots fired incidents.


    In 2015 alone, there were almost 14,000 incidents where children were injured by firearms. Obviously, this includes accidental shootings, but many children are victims of shootings in criminal situations. 17,000 mass shooting incidents have occurred since 2012. Over 13,000 people were killed by gun violence in 2015. Almost 25,000 people were injured by gun violence in 2015, not including accidental shootings or attempted suicides. And as stated, there has been an increased number of mass shootings and an obsession by the media to discuss the mass shootings in schools, the Las Vegas incident from last year, the night club in Miami, Sandy Hook Elementary, and the Virginia tech shooting-just to name a few. The problem I see with the focus on mass shootings is that the media ignore the fact that there are many more people killed each weekend than many of these mass shootings.


    So why do I bring up all these statistics? It’s simple, America is a violent place. With so many guns in circulation, and so many incidents of violence and murder, the possibility of facing an armed subject by police in the US is a serious issue. We could look at cities like Chicago, where over 500 people were murdered just a few years ago. Baltimore has seen a large increase in gun violence, as well as many other cities.


    So, what is the answer to all of this violence? Is gun control the answer? Education? More armed citizens that could possibly put an end to the violence?


    We will examine both sides, the pro second amendment side, as well as the gun control side.


    Then the debate can begin. Remember to be respectful of the beliefs of others, but this is a serious topic, and I expect you posters to challenge the strongly held beliefs of others, as well as your own beliefs. Enjoy.
     
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  4. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    I will begin by examining the pro second amendment side of the argument.


    The second amendment reads as follows:


    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


    There are several different ways that the second amendment can be interpreted, but those on the pro second amendment side focus on the phrase “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. In particular, the word “shall” is important, as it infers that the government should be unable to interfere with that right.


    What does that mean, exactly? It means that anything that falls under the category of “arms” should be available to citizens to be able to possess without government intervention. Arms can be anything from a knife, taser(which, I admit, I recently learned was ruled by the Supreme Court to be covered under the 2nd), to firearms such as shotguns, handguns, or rifles-including so called “assault rifles.”


    Currently, there are laws that prohibit citizens from owning high explosives, or weapons such as a rocket launcher. But a flamethrower is protected, oddly enough.


    Citizens that have a class three stamp(extensive background checks and an extra tax) are able to posses certain fully automatic weapons, including the mini gun made famous in such movies as Predator and Terminator 2.


    Why would any citizen feel the need to possess a firearm? According to interpretations of the second amendment, citizens may own a firearm for self defense, hunting, or collecting purposes. But purists argue that the real reason for the second amendment, is for citizens to be able to form a militia capable of defending the country from invading forces. The purists also strongly believe that the second amendment is to arm the citizens to be able to defend themselves from the very government itself, should tyranny allow the government to trample other rights guaranteed by the constitution, especially the right to life and liberty. That is the truest purpose of the second amendment, so that tyrannical governments cannot limit or remove these rights, as seen during British rule of the American colonies.


    But for now, we will look at self defense, which is the protection of one’s self or property from a threat. Every citizen deserves the right to protect themselves from another person attempting to cause harm. This right applies to both their person, and their home, which is often called “one’s castle” hence the numerous “castle doctrines” in their various forms, which grants a citizen the right to defend their self from harm and their home, using deadly force if necessary. Some states limit this right, stating that the armed citizen should try to retreat if possible, while other states due to require any such retreat.


    There are numerous examples of citizens defending themselves from such threats. In 2012, for example, there were 259 cases in which citizens used lethal force in what were determined to be “justifiable homicides.”


    There are credible studies that estimate that citizens use firearms to stop violence approximately 100,000 per year. That is a high number to substantiate that citizens bearing firearms prevent crimes, however, other studies have that number much higher, as we will see below.


    A 1982 study of imprisoned felons in 11 states, concluded that these felons decided not to attempt a crime 40% of the time if they knew, or believed their intended target to be armed. A 1995 study of only 5,000 households found that in the previous five years, .5 percent of those households had used a firearm in self defense. When applied to today’s standards, that amounts to approximately 62,000 saved lives and over 1,000,000(one million) instances in which crimes were prevented because of the possession of firearms.


    Another study in 2000, found that approximately 990,000 instances where firearms were used to prevent crimes, or used as protection and defense against a threat. In this same study, they determined that in 480,000 instances, firearms were used to scare off suspects in home invasions.


    According to an fbi study, 94% of the mass shootings in 2018 were ended when an armed citizen stopped the shooter. Also of note, in 2018, 98% of these shootings occurred in “gun free zones.”


    Ok, I am done throwing statistics at you, and I am not even going to wade into the case law that I have studied, but I will detail a few specific instances in which a citizen with a firearm stopped a crime in progress.


    On February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, ...nah, just kidding.


    In December of 2012, a mall shooter in Oregon was engaged by citizen Nick Meli, causing the shooter to take their own life rather than be wounded, and subsequently taken into custody.


    In Moore, Oklahoma, a man armed with a machete attacked a woman in a food plant, decapitating her. He then began to go after others when he was shot dead by an armed citizen with a gun.


    In 2007, in Colorado Springs, an armed gunman entered a church and began to open fire. He was shot and wounded by an armed citizen, the suspect then took his own life.


    Also in 2007, in Salt Lake City, an armed gunman began to shoot patrons inside a restaurant, killing five before being shot by an armed citizen. The suspect fled the scene, only to be finished off by police.


    In Chicago 2015, an armed Uber driver took out an armed gunman who had open fired upon a crowd.


    Also in 2015, in Philadelphia, an armed suspect shot and killed a person at a barber shop after an argument. The suspect then turned the firearm on other patrons, wounding one before he was shot and killed by an armed citizen.


    In 2008 in a town with a fucked up name, Nevada, a gunman killed two in a bar and turned towards a crowd of 300 people before he was shot and killed by an armed citizen.


    And finally, in 2015 in Garland Texas, two armed gunmen open fired on a crowd of hundreds at a Mohammed cartoon event that was held in response to the slaughter at a Paris newspaper that dared to print such cartoons. What these gunmen did not realize, was that this was Texas, so multiple citizens filled these two subjects with holes, stopping their rampage.


    Ok, do you get the point? Law abiding citizens armed with firearms prevent crimes, stop intruders in their own home, and have stopped mass shootings.


    Now, we will look at the anti-second amendment argument.
     
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  5. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

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    I think there ought to be a federal law mandating that gun crimes related to the transportation of personal guns and ammo should only be allowed to have a max fine of about $50. Also, national reciprocity for CCWs.
     
  6. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    Now, let’s look at the flip side of the second amendment coin.


    First, we will begin by looking at the document in question, and look at the meaning of the words.


    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


    As discussed in the previous post, the second amendment was written in 1791, years after the end of the American revolution. While framing the bill of rights, considerations were made as to how to defend the nation, as no standing army was permitted at that time. The second amendment was created, so that states would be able to form militia to defend the borders should an invasion occur.


    But there was a more ominous side to the second amendment, and that was to put down slave revolts, and the ability of slave owners to keep slaves in check. Between 1755-1757, all able bodied white males were required to own firearms and conduct monthly checks of plantations.


    These are the dark facts that pro gun owners don’t want to think about. Just like the fact that states with more firearms in circulation have the highest murder rates. Homicide aside, we face thousands of citizens who turn their firearms on themselves, committing suicide. Have any of you(law enforcement aside) ever seen someone commit suicide? They are messy, disturbing affairs, and many of the mentally ill or depressed persons would not have committed suicide if firearms were not available, or such an easy way to end your life.


    Speaking of the mentally ill, how many of you are comfortable with the notion of a schizophrenic carrying a firearm? How about other mental illnesses? The second amendment states that they should be able to bear arms, but some states are seeking to restrict the ability of those with severe mental illness to own a firearm. How about your grandfather with severe dementia or Alzheimer’s? I had to take my grandfather’s keys from him when he became a danger behind the wheel. I also took his firearms, some of which he gave away(fucking ww2 firearms!) as payment for some guy cutting his grass.


    I point this out because many of us realize that some people should not own firearms. We seem to be comfortable taking away this guaranteed right to own a firearm when we recognize that firearms are dangerous in the wrong hands.

    Remember that number that I cited earlier? Where the fbi found 268 justified homicides during that given year, but also in that same year, there were 489 accidental deaths by firearms, most of them children. So careless gun owners are leaving their firearms where their children can get them, and end up shooting themselves.


    Now, I get to the good stuff. Look at all of the numbers, statistics, VICTIMS! from my first post. So many lives ended at the hands of some asshole with a gun. Thousands of lives are lost, over 50,000 people wounded every single year by criminals armed with firearms. We have more murders per capita than any other civilized nation.


    Why do you suppose that is? Probably because there are 88 guns for every 100 citizens-that’s the guns in circulation. If you count the guns that are still on the shelves or being manufactured every year, you could arm every man, woman, child, and the family dog with multiple firearms. I don’t know about you, but my cat can barely drink water without either knocking the bowl over, or getting her whole face wet-I certainly don’t trust her with a firearm!


    We have incidents like Newtown, Connecticut, where a gunman entered an elementary school and slaughtered innocent children-first and second graders, as well as the teachers trying to protect the children with their own lives. We have Parkland, Florida where a former student of a high school entered the school and murdered 17 students and injured 17 more. He had been making threats on social media to shoot people and referencing the Columbine massacre from 1999. Yet, he still had his firearms. How many more mass shootings do we have to endure? Have many more school shootings and dead children? How many lives and families shattered? Vegas, Aurora, Newtown, Parkland, Chicago(chiraq), Baltimore(murdermore), Philadelphia(killadelphia)-cute names that the gangbanger culture gives their cities as they celebrate and are proud of the murders and shootings. All because of how easily guns are obtained.


    Why do we have so many guns in circulation? The NRA, gun manufacturers, and gun lobbyists have so much influence in our government that there are little restrictions placed on how many guns can flood our streets. You have straw purchasers buying a case of shitty ass high points for what purpose? If you ask them, they are “avid” collectors, or simply “because I can, derp derp second amendment, Murica, fuck yeah!” But the real reason is so that he can sell those firearms illegally to gangbangers at a heavy profit so they can put more bodies lying the streets.


    And speaking of gangbangers, almost all of the assholes are felons, and they get caught time after time with firearms, yet they continue to walk out streets, getting another firearm as easily as going to the store to buy a loaf of bread. I have told a few of my experiences with gun crime, such as having criminals shoot someone, only to spend one year and one day in prison. One such subject, fired several shots through a door, kicked in the door and then held the firearm to a woman’s head before the gun jammed. He spent one year + one day in prison. The very day he got out, within 16 hours, he was at a bar where a shooting occurred. As we arrive on scene, he fires six shots at us, which we heard whizzing above our heads. We gave out a description of him, he was captured, without the gun, which he tossed onto a store roof. As the officers take him into custody to perform a gun shot residue test, a riot breaks out and we are being attacked by the crowd. The lieutenant orders those officers to release that asshole and come help with the riot. The gun is found a few weeks later, having been out in the rain, was useless to us, plus we had no gsr test.


    So, who else do we have in here that has had a gun pointed at them or has been shot? I am betting there are a few of us in here.


    So, based on an incredibly outdated document, in which the framers could never have imagined automatic rifles and handguns capable of carrying 30 rounds in an extended magazine, being so numerous and prevalent in our society. They certainly could never have imagined the descendants of slaves being able to own such firearms. Knowing that, would they have written “shall not be infringed” on there, or maybe something a little less vague, yet final?


    We need to do something to stop all of this killing. I cited studies in the pro-gun post that stated anywhere from 100,000 to one million suspected crimes were thwarted by gun owners, but how many more crimes were committed using guns? We are being drowned in blood, all for an outdated document that fails to be able to keep up with the changing technologies and advances in firearms, mass production which leads to mass killing.


    You say you have the right to bear arms, I say I have the right to walk down the street with my family without fear of being shot.


    That’s it. Wasn’t easy for me to write this one, but let’s have it-fire away-cuz y’all luv yer gunz “Murica!”
     
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  7. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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  8. Quipling

    Quipling Red Belt

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    I don't like any of the stated options. Seems that there is no room for either:

    "Repeal and replace with a modern version"

    Or

    any viewpoint that believes regulations may be constitutional. Instead, the poll couches all of these options as infringements, sharply coloring any potential debate.
     
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  9. zebby23

    zebby23 Silver Belt

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    2nd amendment is protected as it should be but that law was written in 1789 and it’s now 2019. The law should be looked at again and improved if at all possible to get into the 21st century.

    Before I’m attacked for even wanting discussion I’m pro 2nd amendment but feel firearms are far too easy to get and it may be time to take a deeper look at how the meaning when written applies to the present day.
     
  10. Headkicktoleg

    Headkicktoleg Yellow Card Yellow Card

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    probably because the 2nd amendment and guns are a reality. You can't close pandora's box
     
  11. Quipling

    Quipling Red Belt

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    What would the constitutional basis for these laws be, given the way that they restrict state sovreignity?
     
  12. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

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    It's not a law. Here's why that is important. A mere majority in Congress cannot change it.
     
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  13. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

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    The federal Bill of Rights applies to US citizens and protections of those rights can be enforced on the states.
     
  14. zebby23

    zebby23 Silver Belt

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    Right needs 2/3. Still should be re-examined and improved upon
     
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  15. Quipling

    Quipling Red Belt

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    I'm aware that guns exist, as does the second amendment. I am discussing a hypothetical amendment that would modernize the second amendment
     
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  16. IngaVovchanchyn

    IngaVovchanchyn Titanium Belt Platinum Member

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    Two thirds majority in Congress and 2/3 of the states tor ratify.

    What improvements do you suggest?
     
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  17. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Titanium Belt

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    Give us your take on a modern version.

    What poll option should there be that doesn't represent some level of infringement? It's either allow all guns for everyone or restrict access in some manner.
     
  18. EradiatedHaggis

    EradiatedHaggis Banned Banned

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    Would have voted for "Hookers are awesome", however since Russian hookers are not the best I will vote for dont change a damn thing.
     
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  19. zebby23

    zebby23 Silver Belt

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    I’m not a legislator but I would certainly make it much more difficult to obtain a firearm such as a long waiting period, universal background checks. I’d probably do away with high capacity magazines and make punishments for illegally selling a gun insanely harsh.

    Invest more in smart technology such as a fingerprint locking system or something like that.

    I think buying a gun should be similar to buying a car, owners should be licensed and even possibly insured. Raising the age to purchase to 21, force all owners to undergo a moderate training programs. We should implement a program where a relative or law enforcement can petition the court to temporarily ban an individual from possessing a firearm if they are deemed a danger to themselves or others.

    Eliminate funding restrictions on gun violence research.

    But the first thing I would do is make it less taboo to have the debate and stop both sides from being so extreme
     
  20. SiKnSiN

    SiKnSiN Brown Belt

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    Repeal it and put in place a licensing/permit system. There definitely needs to be ownership control over gun control, but I don't agree with passing laws restricting ownership while it's a protected right.
     
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