International Pope Francis has died

[Rob Battisti]

You said that he had made heretical statements. Then I explained to you that all of that has been explained by other theologians. Then I asked you to list them and you ghosted and then after that you repeated those lies again to someone else. So now you should either show your receipts or quit lying about the Pope.

You are being influenced by right wing propaganda.

You are lying.

But it’s okay, here are the things in question:

• 1. Amoris Laetitia and Communion for Divorced and Remarried Catholics
  • Issue: The 2016 apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia (Chapter 8, footnote 351) allows, in some cases, divorced and civilly remarried Catholics in “irregular” unions to receive Communion after discernment, without requiring them to live in continence.
  • Critics’ Claim: This contradicts Catholic doctrine on the indissolubility of marriage and the Eucharist, as taught in Familiaris Consortio (1981), which requires abstinence from sexual relations for such couples to receive Communion. Critics argue it implies adultery can be morally acceptable, denying divine law.
  • Heresy Accusation: The 2019 open letter and 2017 Filial Correction label this a rejection of Catholic teaching on marriage, sexual morality, and sacramental discipline, constituting heresy. The dubia by four cardinals (2016) and ongoing global divisions in implementation amplify the charge.
  • Impact: Its formal nature (a papal document) and direct challenge to core doctrines make it the most cited evidence of potential “heresy”.
• 2. Religious Pluralism and Statements on Other Religions
  • Issue: Statements like the 2019 Abu Dhabi document (“The pluralism and diversity of religions… are willed by God in His wisdom”) and the 2024 Singapore interfaith remark (“All religions are paths to reach God”) are seen as endorsing religious pluralism.
  • Critics’ Claim: These suggest God positively wills non-Christian religions, including polytheistic ones, as valid paths to salvation, contradicting the doctrine that salvation comes solely through Christ and the Church (extra Ecclesiam nulla salus).
  • Heresy Accusation: The 2019 open letter accuses Francis of denying Christ’s unique salvific role, a heretical position. Critics call the Singapore statement a “rejection of Christ,” implying relativism or syncretism.
  • Impact: These statements, made in high-profile interfaith settings, fuel accusations of heresy due to their public nature and perceived theological ambiguity, though they are less concrete than Amoris Laetitia.
• 3. Moral Theology and Subjective Culpability
  • Issue: Amoris Laetitia and related teachings emphasize subjective factors (e.g., conscience, circumstances) in moral culpability, suggesting individuals can knowingly violate divine law (e.g., in irregular unions) without committing mortal sin.
  • Critics’ Claim: This undermines the objective nature of sin and the Church’s moral teachings, as it implies divine commandments can be set aside based on personal discernment. The 2019 open letter cites this as a denial of the Church’s doctrine on grave sin.
  • Heresy Accusation: Critics argue Francis’s focus on subjective conscience over objective moral norms constitutes a heretical rejection of divine law’s binding nature, tied to Amoris Laetitia’s pastoral approach.
  • Impact: This issue is significant for its theological implications but is often subsumed under Amoris Laetitia critiques, making it less standalone than the other two, though still central to scholarly accusations like the Filial Correction.

These are issues that cardinals in the Catholic Church have brought up. I didn’t call him a heretic outright.

I like you man, but you’re going off the deep end here.

 

[Rob Battisti]

You were never catholic if you think like this.

I was never a Catholic if I think what? That Pope Francis has expressed non-traditional views to Catholic orthodoxy? I better tell my priest he’s not Catholic either.

 

[terrapin]

You are lying.

But it’s okay, here are the things in question:


These are issues that cardinals in the Catholic Church have brought up. I didn’t call him a heretic outright.

I like you man, but you’re going off the deep end here.

Can you admit that you said he has made heretical statements? And can you admit that a heretical statement has to be obstinate and explicit?

Specifically, the word obstinate is a requirement and it has to be moral. It has to be known that the statement is heretical. It must be intended to be a heretical statement.

Nothing you just listed meets those criteria man....

 

[A Very Serious Cat]

I'm not Catholic but I am Catholic adjacent and I came in from the new age with no bone to pick with Christianity and just did a study of all of them and experiencing all of them. And what I found out is that if you come in empty, there are only two Christian religions that you can really believe are as close to what Jesus meant as possible and that's Catholicism or the Orthodox Church.

There's a ton of history and historical writings from the earliest days that people don't know about and that's why we kind of do know what the Bible means and we know what the disciples thought because we have a ton of literature explaining the scriptures and giving us under the hood insights into the Christian formation.

What the hell is a catholic adjacent? Orthodox? Haven't you just argued Catholics or orthodox are the closest to true believers so why believe anything else?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Can you admit that you said he has made heretical statements? And can you admit that a heretical statement has to be obstinate and explicit?

Specifically, the word obstinate is a requirement and it has to be moral. It has to be known that the statement is heretical. It must be intended to be a heretical statement.

Nothing you just listed meets those criteria man....

If you are here to parse what “heresy” means in the most stringent sense then you win. If you’re trying to have a scholarly theological debate, you win.

He’s said things which go against traditional orthodox views. He was a reformer pope. Things he’s said have had cardinals question him.

My biggest issue was always the “multiple paths to god” from someone leading the Catholic Church. If you have an issue with the word heresy, you win.

 

[terrapin]

What the hell is a catholic adjacent? Orthodox? Haven't you just argued Catholics or orthodox are the closest to true believers so why believe anything else?

I'm Catholic adjacent because my loyalties are divided 50% between Orthodox and Catholic faith.

I often agree with the Orthodox Church more on theological matters where there is any dispute, but I believe the Catholic Church produces a deeper kind of Saint on average.

But all of my theology is completely based on the writings of the saints/theologians who made up early church history. I don't hold any heretical or even really any fringe ideas that would put me at direct odds with the Catholic or Orthodox faiths.

I was also a practicing Catholic for about 10 years. Even though I am no longer practicing and that that is a problem in the eyes of the Catholic faith or the Orthodox faith, I still lay it their feet and listen to everything they teach.

As to the reasons I left the best way to boil it down without getting bogged down in details is that I am growing spiritually faster and deeper by not attending mass than if I do attend Mass. But absolutely nothing that I ever do gain spiritually, as meager as it is, could have ever been gained without the writings of the saints, the theologians and the steadfast teaching of those churches, especially the monastics.

And I don't mean that ideologically only, I mean literally the power that is transmitted in their writings. I am completely and forever in their debt for it.

 

[terrapin]

You were never catholic if you think like this.

That hurts to hear but I think it's true and I think it means I was never Catholic and that breaks my heart. Every good thing I have gained from Christianity comes from the Catholic church with the Orthodox Church and it sucks to think that I'm not really Catholic.

And I'm not saying that your post did that. It's actually something that's been evolving for me the last 9 months or so.

 

[Cole train]

I still think orthodox stuff is best due to coolest churches

I was forced into one in saint pete and inside looked like something out of 40k

 

[Possum Jenkins]

MAGA would lose their shit ''actually we hate him because we don't think he's black ENOUGH''

"DEI Pope"

We want someone that's actually earned it!

Let's see this pope's test scores.

 

[terrapin]

If you are here to parse what “heresy” means in the most stringent sense then you win. If you’re trying to have a scholarly theological debate, you win.

He’s said things which go against traditional orthodox views. He was a reformer pope. Things he’s said have had cardinals question him.

My biggest issue was always the “multiple paths to god” from someone leading the Catholic Church. If you have an issue with the word heresy, you win.

Well, there can be no discussion other than scholarly on matters as serious as claiming that the pope has made heretical statements. He hasn't. And those bishops slander and lie if they pretend that he has. It is especially egregious for them because they know dang well what the requirements are for a statement to be heretical.

And I'm not trying to be a dick man. It's just that I have really come to like you and it is sad to see you listening to right-wing propaganda within the church and to know that clearly you haven't really read the statements the pope made or that they've made for yourself, nor have you read the rebuttals that theologians make explaining why the criticisms are false...

Just the notion that other gods/religions are considered a different language or way of describing the one true God... You should listen to the video I posted above with Jimmy Akin. It's a short, it's only 4 minutes. I linked it because it's so easy to watch. Jimmy Aikin goes back into the early church fathers writings and shows that that notion has been present with us ever since the very beginning of the church and is foreshadowed by Paul who did the same thing in Acts... instead of condemning Greek mythology and Roman mythology... he used it to show how Christ is true.

There's a story where one of the early desert fathers went to a pagan recluse and asked why he needs to sleep at night whereas this pagan did not. The pagan monk says it's because you are so sinful and you need to be much more devoted and true. So that Christian monk went to his cave and did as the pagan told him to and started getting visited by Angels for all of his life all night and no longer needed to sleep.

This kind of literature is part of the Christian heritage and as a Catholic, you should know that Sola Scripture is a false and heretical teaching and that we have always included the early church fathers, the desert fathers, saints, and theologians in our understanding of Christianity.

Christianity presently is absolutely batshit crazy and mean-spirited and cruel to other religions. And it's okay for a pope to come along and remind people that that is actually in contradiction with Christian tradition and that a spirit of love and cooperation has always been present in the Christian tradition.


The same can be shown for everything you listed.

 

[Rod1]

That hurts to hear but I think it's true and I think it means I was never Catholic and that breaks my heart. Every good thing I have gained from Christianity comes from the Catholic church with the Orthodox Church and it sucks to think that I'm not really Catholic.

And I'm not saying that your post did that. It's actually something that's been evolving for me the last 9 months or so.

Eh? you can leave the Catholic Church if it doesn't fits your beliefs, but saying "I didn't left the church, the church left me" is just not something a real Catholic would ever say.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Vatican City is pretty fun to visit. Weird ass crowds but cool architecture. Looks like a gaudy mafia compound if the goomba security dressed like clowns

 

[A Very Serious Cat]

I still think orthodox stuff is best due to coolest churches

I was forced into one in saint pete and inside looked like something out of 40k

The Catholics do a good cathedral as well, I really like the architecture and some art produced by the church but that's about where the appreciation begins and ends

 

[terrapin]

Eh? you can leave the Catholic Church if it doesn't fits your beliefs, but saying "I didn't left the church, the church left me" is just not something a real Catholic would ever say.

Hey man, that was a moment of vulnerability from me. I was in no way challenging your position. It's a real sore spot for me presently, although I know it'll all work out in the end.

And now that you mention that you're absolutely right, you can't say the Catholic church left you if your Catholic. And that is a huge point of distinction between my position and his.

 

[Rod1]

I was never a Catholic if I think what?

If you claim that the Catholic church "left you" because you don't like what the Pope is doing means that you don't really ever believed in the core tenets of Catholicism in the first place.

That Pope Francis has expressed non-traditional views to Catholic orthodoxy?

His non-traditional subjective opinions are meaningless just like we don't care about what a judge says outside of the courtroom, but once a Pope lays down the law, its still the law.

I better tell my priest he’s not Catholic either.

Im sure your priest, even if he disagrees with Francis I still doesn't considers him an heretic or is planning to leave the Church over it

 

[Rod1]

And now that you mention that you're absolutely right, you can't say the Catholic church left you if your Catholic. And that is a huge point of distinction between my position and his.

No worries man, im not really a practicing catholic anymore things i could reconcile with just made me stop going to church because it felt "wrong" as i was unrepentant on many things and didn't believed in others.

Im not claiming that Catholic church doesn't fits me, i don't fit in the Catholic church.

 

[Rob Battisti]

If you claim that the Catholic church "left you" because you don't like what the Pope is doing means that you don't really ever believed in the core tenets of Catholicism in the first place.


His non-traditional subjective opinions are meaningless just like we don't care about what a judge says outside of the courtroom, but once a Pope lays down the law, its still the law.


Im sure your priest, even if he disagrees with Francis I still doesn't considers him an heretic or is planning to leave the Church over it

Oh you misunderstood me. I’m not leaving because of what Francis said. On the contrary, I believe more in what Francis said but that the Catholic Church is too restrictive. I want peace and love in my worship. That’s not Catholicism today.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Eh? you can leave the Catholic Church if it doesn't fits your beliefs, but saying "I didn't left the church, the church left me" is just not something a real Catholic would ever say.

Fair enough — I should have said “I’m tired of hearing about how bad everyone is and that wasn’t the same as when I grew up. I don’t like the way the church is right now so I’m out. I feel like it’s charged a ton and not for the better. It’s probably the churches I’ve been to, but I’ve tried many and still found myself wanting”.

 

[Cajun]

I'm Catholic adjacent because my loyalties are divided 50% between Orthodox and Catholic faith.

I often agree with the Orthodox Church more on theological matters where there is any dispute, but I believe the Catholic Church produces a deeper kind of Saint on average.

But all of my theology is completely based on the writings of the saints/theologians who made up early church history. I don't hold any heretical or even really any fringe ideas that would put me at direct odds with the Catholic or Orthodox faiths.

I was also a practicing Catholic for about 10 years. Even though I am no longer practicing and that that is a problem in the eyes of the Catholic faith or the Orthodox faith, I still lay it their feet and listen to everything they teach.

As to the reasons I left the best way to boil it down without getting bogged down in details is that I am growing spiritually faster and deeper by not attending mass than if I do attend Mass. But absolutely nothing that I ever do gain spiritually, as meager as it is, could have ever been gained without the writings of the saints, the theologians and the steadfast teaching of those churches, especially the monastics.

And I don't mean that ideologically only, I mean literally the power that is transmitted in their writings. I am completely and forever in their debt for it.

Is there a particular orthadox?

 

[Cajun]

Fair enough — I should have said “I’m tired of hearing about how bad everyone is and that wasn’t the same as when I grew up. I don’t like the way the church is right now so I’m out. I feel like it’s charged a ton and not for the better. It’s probably the churches I’ve been to, but I’ve tried many and still found myself wanting”.

So what will you do?