Crime Pope apologizes for ‘evil committed by so many Christians’ in Canada’s residential schools

Do you think the Pope did the right thing by apologizing?

  • I don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    86
Christianity is the only major religion that acknowledges past wrongs. Christians activists also spearheaded the abolitionist movement. Do you like slavery? Or was it just convenient to not mention the past good? Islam will never acknowledge 'past wrongs' because by definition, Islam is never wrong.
i don't think that's correct. you have a lot of muslim scholars criticizing slavery, violence, terrorism, all that, saying it's against the teachings of islam. they just don't have, the sunnis at least, a pope figure, who can make the grovel act more credible.
this pope we got is willing to do all this, and it's a boon for the church, cause it takes the pressure off at least 3-4 future popes.
 
Christianity is the only major religion that acknowledges past wrongs. Christians activists also spearheaded the abolitionist movement. Do you like slavery? Or was it just convenient to not mention the past good? Islam will never acknowledge 'past wrongs' because by definition, Islam is never wrong.
Well hallo Tom, been a long while.

The question being asked was whether it was a good thing for the Pope to apologise for a specific wrong. I maintain that yes, it was. The Gospel message is that righteousness is imputed to individuals by grace, justification by faith in God (Romans 4, Galations 2). Repentance is a component, which requires acknowledgement of past wrongs.

If the question was: “has Christianity been a net positive?”, then it would make sense to bring up the great good which has been done by Christians.
 
It was a bad scene. I'm not sure why people are so invested in pretending it wasn't.

I'm not Canadian, so the whole story is kinda not impactful here, but from what I've seen it is complaints that the tomography scans used can't verify if there are bodies down there, just anomalies in the Earth that look like graves. There needs to be an exhumation to verify that Kamloops is in fact a mass grave of indigenous children, which I don't believe has happened yet.
 
pope could have killed like 90213483902582349023893429034823903284320984329057234098 birds with one stone if he just apologised to the whole world at once for the evil many christians have commited in schools all over the world.
 
I'm not Canadian, so the whole story is kinda not impactful here, but from what I've seen it is complaints that the tomography scans used can't verify if there are bodies down there, just anomalies in the Earth that look like graves. There needs to be an exhumation to verify that Kamloops is in fact a mass grave of indigenous children, which I don't believe has happened yet.

I don't disagree with that. But there are a few nuances here that are very important to note:

1. There's a cultural thing happening here. Indigenous people aren't comfortable with just digging up graves. I do think that some exhumation needs to take place. But some patience and sensitivity are in order. This is going to take some time.

2. Indigenous people have been telling these stories for decades and have been dismissed or ignored. These scans do add further credence to the stories they've been telling us. Yes, we will eventually need more investigation and more concrete confirmation, but to pile on with doubt and dismissal while we are waiting for this sensitive process to play out is an exercise in cruelty.

3. We know, with certainty, that a lot of Indigenous children did not make it home from their time at residential schools. This has been determined through careful investigation by the the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Out of extreme caution and liability risk aversion, Canadian governments haven't just voluntarily admitted to past wrongdoing in Indigenous matters. I know that Trudeau is seen as a spineless virtue signaler, and he is, but his government has fought Indigenous suits in court tooth and nail. Nevertheless they've admitted numerous deaths due to disease and mistreatment. These gravesites simply aren't a surprise to anyone.

4. It is well accepted that these schools were informational black holes of lawlessness. Any predator or sadist in the market for an endless supply of vulnerable children to abuse needed look no farther than a a position within a residential school. And that's exactly what those people did. Which is why a full 50% of the kids who went to these schools were sexually abused. That's without even entering into the systemic cruelty, neglect, and physical abuse. Anything was fair game in these spaces and no one was holding people responsible, investigating suspicious or criminal actions, or even doing any sort of reasonable record keeping. Part of the reason we are in this place is that these schools literally burned all of their death records, along with records of where the children who died were buried. (To add insult to injury, this is a fact that the cynics have tried to spin in their favour whenever they hedge on their proclamations of doubt about whether there are even bodies buried at these sites, by saying that we don't know who these bodies are or how they died. Well, exactly.)

5. The science of the scans is fairly well respected in the context and for what it is. That is to say, no, this isn't an x-ray into the earth that shows us bodies buried there, but while one or two anomalies in the earth that look like graves could be anything, once you get into the dozens or hundreds it's a different story. Anyone I've seen speak who understands the technology (and that's not me) seems fairly well convinced these are graveyards. And the graves are, indeed, unmarked.

Again, some exhumation is probably in order at some point, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that exhumed bodies will somehow satisfy the cynics. They will simply move the goalposts again and point out that we can't identify the bodies or, often, determine causes of death. Which, again, is true. But why is it true? Because these schools were black holes, for information, for records, and for children.

When people look you (rhetorical "you"; not you, you) in the eye and tell you the atrocities that they've witnessed, corroborated by thousands of fellow witnesses, and you demand evidence, knowing full well that any records that might serve as evidence have been destroyed, and they continue to give you different sorts of corroborating evidence, which you continue to dismiss because it isn't backed up by any records (which, again, have been destroyed), it starts to look like you're not very sincere about getting to the truth.
 
Last edited:
I don't disagree with that. But there are a few nuances here that are very important to note:

1. There's a cultural thing happening here. Indigenous people aren't comfortable with just digging up graves. I do think that some exhumation needs to take place. But some patience and sensitivity are in order. This is going to take some time.

2. Indigenous people have been telling these stories for decades and have been dismissed or ignored. These scans do add further credence to the stories they've been telling us. Yes, we will eventually need more investigation and more concrete confirmation, but to pile on with doubt and dismissal while we are waiting for this sensitive process to play out is an exercise in cruelty.

3. We know, with certainty, that a lot of Indigenous children did not make it home from their time at residential schools. This has been determined through careful investigation by the the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Out of extreme caution and liability risk aversion, Canadian governments haven't just voluntarily admitted to past wrongdoing in Indigenous matters. I know that Trudeau is seen as a spineless virtue signaler, and he is, but his government has fought Indigenous suits in court tooth and nail. Nevertheless they've admitted numerous deaths due to disease and mistreatment. These gravesites simply aren't a surprise to anyone.

4. It is well excepted that these schools were informational black holes of lawlessness. Any predator or sadist in the market for an endless supply of vulnerable children to abuse needed look no farther than a a position within a residential school. And that's exactly what those people did. Which is why a full 50% of the kids who went to these schools were sexually abused. That's without even entering into the systemic cruelty, neglect, and physical abuse. Anything was fair game in these spaces and no one was holding people responsible, investigating suspicious or criminal actions, or even doing any sort of reasonable record keeping. Part of the reason we are in this place is that these schools literally burned all of their death records, along with records of where the children who died were buried. (To add insult to injury, this is a fact that the cynics have tried to spin in their favour whenever they hedge on their proclamations of doubt about whether there are even bodies buried at these sites, by saying that we don't know who these bodies are or how they died. Well, exactly.)

5. The science of the scans is fairly well respected in the context and for what it is. That is to say, no, this isn't an x-ray into the earth that shows us bodies buried there, but while one or two anomalies in the earth that look like graves could be anything, once you get into the dozens or hundreds it's a different story. Anyone I've seen speak who understands the technology (and that's not me) seems fairly well convinced these are graveyards. And the graves are, indeed, unmarked.

Again, some exhumation is probably in order at some point, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that exhumed bodies will somehow satisfy the cynics. They will simply move the goalposts again and point out that we can't identify the bodies or, often, determine causes of death. Which, again, is true. But why is it true? Because these schools were black holes, for information, for records, and for children.

When people look you (rhetorical "you"; not you, you) in the eye and tell you the atrocities that they've witnessed, corroborated by thousands of fellow witnesses, and you demand evidence, knowing full well that any records that might serve as evidence have been destroyed, and they continue to give you different sorts of corroborating evidence, which you continue to dismiss because it isn't backed up by any records (which, again, have been destroyed), it starts to look like you're not very sincere about getting to the truth.
I think we're mostly in agreement in this topic and our disagreements aren't important ones. But I have a question:

What next? As in, where do we go from here as a united society? Can we be a united society? We can't fix this, those responsible are dead, but generational trauma is real, so their shit legacy is still alive. We need patience and understanding, but understanding has to go both ways.

I'm a problem solver personality and hate shit I can't fix.
 
I don't care for people apologizing for other people. Its so empty and fake.
 
If you are not directly involved, then the apologies mean nothing at all. If I come out and apologize for something someone did because I have something in common with them(white,male,40,bald…), it means absolutely nothing. It’s just grandstanding. Though, you do you, Popey. Self-flagellation is common with Christians and basically many religious people in general. Whatever makes you feel good.
 
I don’t understand why he specifically mentions “Christians” when it was specifically Catholic schools perpetuating these abuses?

Christianity and Catholicism are different, no?
 
I don’t understand why he specifically mentions “Christians” when it was specifically Catholic schools perpetuating these abuses?

Christianity and Catholicism are different, no?
Wants the biggest audience to share in the guilt as possible. Misery loves company.

Catholic Church is Christian, but not all Christians are catholic.
 
I think we're mostly in agreement in this topic and our disagreements aren't important ones. But I have a question:

What next? As in, where do we go from here as a united society? Can we be a united society? We can't fix this, those responsible are dead, but generational trauma is real, so their shit legacy is still alive. We need patience and understanding, but understanding has to go both ways.

I'm a problem solver personality and hate shit I can't fix.

I wish I had a simple answer, but there isn't one. I do have some ideas based on the work of my wife and my father with Indigenous communities and youth (as well as my own work with Indigenous youth in the school system, and in my relationship with my wife who I've been with since Jr High and who has an extensive CSA trauma history of her own).

I think the first step is to recognize that this is a long hard road. It's going to take a few generations to sort things out. But we must also, simultaneously, recognize the immediate urgency of the situation. This is almost impossible for human beings to do. If we work like hell for a few days, let alone a few years, and don't see dramatic results in that time we tend to shrug and figure the whole thing is hopeless. But such deep destruction has been caused here that we need to dig in now knowing we will need to work like hell for a couple of generations. The healing will come, but it will be gradual. We can't let that discourage us from doing the work.

So what is the work? That's the tougher question. Here are just a few of my thoughts:

1. Yes, all of this was caused by systems and institutions, but the mess was made one person at a time. One predator and predatory act at a time. One abused/neglected/mistreated child at a time. It needs to be remedied one person at a time. The sorts of widespread trauma that you see in Indigenous communities don't just fade on their own, and they can't be healed through generalized community programs alone. People need one on one counseling and therapy. And that's an expensive undertaking. It's always been my own personal thought that if we're going to have a "reparations" conversation it should center around this expense.

2. We really do need to hold space for people. That's what this discussion around the gravesites comes down to. There are always going to be all sorts of questions around these schools and what happened there because, as I said, the places were black holes for the truth. But we do know that the entire scene was often horrific for countless children. This isn't really up for debate. When we start getting into the place of debating these factual details, it feels to the people who were wronged that we either don't believe them or don't care about their pain. This is retraumatizing. Any good psychologist will tell you that the way people react when someone discloses their abuse has a significant impact on how that person moves forward.

3. These communities need help and support. The burden is far too heavy for the healthy people in the community to carry on their own. But they need that help and support from friends, not just random white people who come in and out imparting their supposed "wisdom" without making real human connections. In my experience Indigenous communities are very welcoming. It's well worthwhile to go to a powwow and find other ways to get to know people in these communities and to understand the culture. We need to form genuine mutual and trusting relationships with people in these communities. And then we need to do what we do in all of our genuine mutual and trusting relationships, which is to ask how we can help when we see our friends in bad circumstances.

The whole thing is very daunting, but hope and love prevail. They have to.
 
I don't disagree with that. But there are a few nuances here that are very important to note:

1. There's a cultural thing happening here. Indigenous people aren't comfortable with just digging up graves. I do think that some exhumation needs to take place. But some patience and sensitivity are in order. This is going to take some time.

Why isn't it possible to make an exception and dig up some of these bodies and do autopsies on them when many questions can be answered by doing so? You could determine that bodies do actually exist and perhaps identify some of them, when these children died, whether they were abused and beaten, were they malnourished or whether they died of diseases and so on. If native people are so sure that many of these children were abused, then why not confirm it instead of keeping the public in the dark instead of providing proof that autopsies could bring?

2. Indigenous people have been telling these stories for decades and have been dismissed or ignored. These scans do add further credence to the stories they've been telling us. Yes, we will eventually need more investigation and more concrete confirmation, but to pile on with doubt and dismissal while we are waiting for this sensitive process to play out is an exercise in cruelty.

While there's no question that abuse did happen in some of these schools, is there real proof that it was a very widespread issue? At least 150,000 native children attended these schools so does that mean that tens of thousands were actually abused? Is there any verifiable proof of this or are we only to believe native people telling their stories? No offense but it would be nice to have some form of concrete proof other than eye witness testimony that abuse of native kids at these schools was a regular and widespread issue.

3. We know, with certainty, that a lot of Indigenous children did not make it home from their time at residential schools. This has been determined through careful investigation by the the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Out of extreme caution and liability risk aversion, Canadian governments haven't just voluntarily admitted to past wrongdoing in Indigenous matters. I know that Trudeau is seen as a spineless virtue signaler, and he is, but his government has fought Indigenous suits in court tooth and nail. Nevertheless they've admitted numerous deaths due to disease and mistreatment. These gravesites simply aren't a surprise to anyone.

While many children did die at residential schools, with the time period these schools were setup they were often opened long before vaccines and advanced medicine were available to protect against diseases and illnesses. Children and people in general all over Canada were dying of various diseases and illnesses that had no cure at the time. Again autopsies of bodies would answer whether this was the case or not for many residential school students. Why wouldn't you want to confirm what you've always believed unless you're potentially afraid that the results of those autopsies might not completely match your claims?

Again, some exhumation is probably in order at some point, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that exhumed bodies will somehow satisfy the cynics. They will simply move the goalposts again and point out that we can't identify the bodies or, often, determine causes of death. Which, again, is true. But why is it true? Because these schools were black holes, for information, for records, and for children.

What if autopsies CAN determine at least that these children weren't mistreated or malnourished or beaten? Would native people accept these results the same if autopsies that DID show that many children were abused and mistreated? Or would they simply reject these scientific facts because it didn't match their claims?
 
I don’t understand why he specifically mentions “Christians” when it was specifically Catholic schools perpetuating these abuses?

Christianity and Catholicism are different, no?

There were protestants that opened residential schools as well, but I don't know if Pope Francis was referring to them when he used the word Christian. It seems to me that he was only apologizing on behalf of the local Catholic Churches and individual Catholics that were directly involved. Catholics are Christians.

"The Indian residential schools in Canada were predominately funded and operated by the Government of Canada and Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and United churches. To a lesser scale, some Indian residential schools were funded by provincial governments or by the various religious orders."
https://www.anishinabek.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/An-Overview-of-the-IRS-System-Booklet.pdf
 
Last edited:
Wants the biggest audience to share in the guilt as possible. Misery loves company.

Catholic Church is Christian, but not all Christians are catholic.

That isn't true. Pope Francis has been criticized because he didn't apologize for the entire Catholic Church as an institution. He apologized on behalf of the local Canadian Churches that were directly involved and went against the teachings of Jesus and the Church.

The pope's apology to Indigenous people doesn't go far enough, Canada says

The government's criticisms echo those of some survivors and concern Francis' omission of any reference to the sexual abuse suffered by Indigenous children in the schools, as well as his original reluctance to name the Catholic Church as an institution bearing responsibility.

Francis noted that the school system was "promoted by the governmental authorities at the time" as part of a policy of assimilation and enfranchisement. But responding to criticism, he added that "local Catholic institutions had a part" in implementing that policy.

Miller noted that Francis on Monday spoke of "evil" committed by individual Christians "but not the Catholic Church as an institution."

On Wednesday he committed himself and the local Canadian church to "move forward on a fraternal and patient journey with all Canadians, in accordance with truth and justice, working for healing and reconciliation, and constantly inspired by hope."
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/28/1114207125/canada-pope-apology-indigenous
 
Last edited:
Why isn't it possible to make an exception and dig up some of these bodies and do autopsies on them when many questions can be answered by doing so? You could determine that bodies do actually exist and perhaps identify some of them, when these children died, whether they were abused and beaten, were they malnourished or whether they died of diseases and so on. If native people are so sure that many of these children were abused, then why not confirm it instead of keeping the public in the dark instead of providing proof that autopsies could bring?



While there's no question that abuse did happen in some of these schools, is there real proof that it was a very widespread issue? At least 150,000 native children attended these schools so does that mean that tens of thousands were actually abused? Is there any verifiable proof of this or are we only to believe native people telling their stories? No offense but it would be nice to have some form of concrete proof other than eye witness testimony that abuse of native kids at these schools was a regular and widespread issue.



While many children did die at residential schools, with the time period these schools were setup they were often opened long before vaccines and advanced medicine were available to protect against diseases and illnesses. Children and people in general all over Canada were dying of various diseases and illnesses that had no cure at the time. Again autopsies of bodies would answer whether this was the case or not for many residential school students. Why wouldn't you want to confirm what you've always believed unless you're potentially afraid that the results of those autopsies might not completely match your claims?



What if autopsies CAN determine at least that these children weren't mistreated or malnourished or beaten? Would native people accept these results the same if autopsies that DID show that many children were abused and mistreated? Or would they simply reject these scientific facts because it didn't match their claims?
Just so we're clear are you saying you would take a handful of autopsy reports, that would be limited in what they can tell over the thousands of stories from survivors?
 
Last edited:
Pope Francis Highlights the Issue of State Power and Evangelization
The Holy Father said the Church needs to avoid collaborating with state power, which seeks to destroy the ‘natural attachment of peoples to their values.’

Pope Francis lifted up the example of St. François when addressing the Canadian bishops on Thursday before venerating his tomb at Notre Dame cathedral in Quebec City. St. François, like his namesake St. Francis Xavier, arrived in the mission lands as part of a colonial expansion, the former under the French crown, the latter under the Portuguese.

St. François though was able to criticize those same colonial authorities when they gave counterwitness to the Gospel, particularly in regard to Indigenous peoples.

“Let us recover the missionary zeal of your first bishop, Saint François de Laval, who railed against those who demeaned the indigenous people by inducing them to imbibe strong drink in order then to cheat them,” Pope Francis reminded his listeners.

There were some Catholic voices who objected to the state project of residential schools, but they were a small minority. Too few had the courage and wisdom of St. François. Most Catholic institutions went along with the government policy and now, so many years later, a bitter harvest is still being reaped.

The option of evangelization alongside state power is not available today as it was in the Americas several centuries ago. The Church, for her part at Vatican II and in St. John Paul II’s encyclical on mission, Redemptoris Missio, committed herself to propose in freedom, not impose by state power, the Gospel. Yet that prior entanglement, and now disentanglement, includes painful episodes in history.
https://www.ncregister.com/commenta...s-the-issue-of-state-power-and-evangelization
 
it's almost like none of us are shocked.
it's almost as if they already have the reputation of being little boy diddlers.
it's almost as if the church has been doing this for centuries....
 
Back
Top