PFP is a coherent concept

[Nous]

probably one of the old timers who doesn't want the shame on their real account...

This is my first account.

I have always wanted to post. But waited to obtain my Phd in analytic philosophy before positing, so I could make sure my posts were of the sufficient quality I wanted them to be.

 

[Gamer007]

I understand the Pound for Pound concept well, but even still I don't get how people don't have Jones #1.

He fought far better competition than anyone else, for a far longer period of time, with just as much dominance as anyone else. He just came back from a three-year layoff and dusted the #1 Ranked HW and former interim champion like it was childs play.

There comes a point where the extension of dominance is so great that he literally has to lose before you take it from him, he is just far more proven than anyone else. Even if you say X fighter could beat 2023 Jones hypothetically, the reality is no one has shown the Chin, Grit, IQ, ability to adjust, durability that Jones has for this period of time, he is by a good margin the greatest fighter in MMA today and that's crazy to say considering how great MM and Volk are in their own right.

It's utterly insane for Jones to have never been officially knocked down his entire career, despite fighting in the most power heavy divisions for 15+ years at the highest-level. people can criticize him as a person, but as a fighter he is objectively better than anyone else, even in 2023 he should clearly have the throne.


Everything after the top 4 or so PFP is just based on how much you individually are weighing recency, skill set, resume, longevity, etc.

For me it's weird to see Alex below Sean on the UFC PFP list, but I'm not oblivious to the fact Sean has been dominant at MW for a very long time. It does seem like complete BS to see Suga Sean at #6 considering many believe he lost the Yan fight. His PFP argument entirely rest on the Yan and Aljo fights, and because the Yan win was controversial and the Aljo win came after Aljo literally just went 5 rounds three months before it seems premature to say there are only 5 better fighters in the UFC. Anyone can have a bad night in MMA, so I tend to weigh resume and longevity a bit more than most it seems.

I think long term success is something that gets undervalued, it's a skill to maintain focus for long periods of time and continue developing your game to stay ahead of the curve. Defending your title 8+ times even against good fighters is harder than defending once or twice against a great one. Volk having to defend against fresh blood like Ilia Topuria will be harder than fighting Max who he was hunting from the start, getting older and having to continuously gameplan against and adjust through new opponents and injuries is the most difficult thing to do.

 

[Nous]

I understand the Pound for Pound concept well, but even still I don't get how people don't have Jones #1.

He fought far better competition than anyone else, for a far longer period of time, with just as much dominance as anyone else. He just came back from a three-year layoff and dusted the #1 Ranked HW and former interim champion like it was childs play.

There comes a point where the extension of dominance is so great that he literally has to lose before you take it from him, he is just far more proven than anyone else. Even if you say X fighter could beat 2023 Jones hypothetically, the reality is no one has shown the Chin, Grit, IQ, ability to adjust, durability that Jones has for this period of time, he is by a good margin the greatest fighter in MMA today and that's crazy to say considering how great MM and Volk are in their own right.

It's utterly insane for Jones to have never been officially knocked down his entire career, despite fighting in the most power heavy divisions for 15+ years at the highest-level. people can criticize him as a person, but as a fighter he is objectively better than anyone else, even in 2023 he should clearly have the throne.


Everything after the top 4 or so PFP is just based on how much you individually are weighing recency, skill set, resume, etc.

For me it's weird to see Alex below Sean on the UFC PFP list, but I'm not oblivious to the fact Sean has been dominant at MW for a very long time. It does seem like complete BS to see Suga Sean at #6 considering many believe he lost the Yan fight. His PFP argument entirely rest on the Yan and rounds fights, and because the Yan win was controversial and the Aljo win came after Aljo literally just went 5 rounds three months before it seems premature to say there are only 5 better fighters in the UFC. Anyone can have a bad night in MMA, so I tend to weigh resume and longevity a bit more than most it seems.

I agree that Jon Jones should be n1. Volk should be n2, and Islam n3.

 

[sdpdude9]

I think the understanding of PFP I offered in not entirely subjective.

Although I generally agree that all things considered it might be best to dispatch of PFP talk and GOAT talk. Alas that is not the world we live in.

“the level of the competition in the top of a weight class”
“how much better they are than that competition.”
“how the level of competition in weight classes approximate to them”
“how well they could fare against that competition.”

Not to be a dick, but literally none of the criteria you used is objective. It’s all open to and predicated on personal opinion, i.e. subjective.

 

[Gamer007]

I agree that Jon Jones should be n1. Volk should be n2, and Islam n3.

So is that a UFC PFP or an MMA PFP list?

Where would you put MM on your list? Because personally I can't put Islam or Volk above MM even today in 2023.

 

[chinarice]

P4P is a fairytale thing made up by boxing enthusiasts.

It's less real than pro-wrestling is.

Your opinion that Sean Strickland would do worse is solely that. YOUR OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. No factual evidence. No matchups to backup the claim. Just your opinion that Sean wouldn't do well against the top.

Would he do better than Leon would at a weight class above? How about O'Malley?

 

[Nous]

“the level of the competition in the top of a weight class”
“how much better they are than that competition.”
“how the level of competition in weight classes approximate to them”
“how well they could fare against that competition.”

Not to be a dick, but literally none of the criteria you used is objective. It’s all open to and predicated on personal opinion, i.e. subjective.

You are wrong. How much better they are than the competition in their weight classes is in the majority of instances not subjective, because they fight the competition in their weight classes. Moreover how they would fare against competition in weight classes approximate to them is also not always subjective. Because sometimes they and fight in the weight classes above them, see Volk. Or they fight opponents who later move up and fight in weight classes above them.

Sure, there exists a dimension of subjectivity to some of the other metric which we ought to use to understand the PFP concept. However, i dom't think the subjectivity there is very pressing. Because we will still give reason for our claims, and reasons against the claims of those who disagree with us, and those reasons can be adjudicated to be better or worse.

 

[Nous]

P4P is a fairytale thing made up by boxing enthusiasts.

It's less real than pro-wrestling is.

Your opinion that Sean Strickland would do worse is solely that. YOUR OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. No factual evidence. No matchups to backup the claim. Just your opinion that Sean wouldn't do well against the top.

Would he do better than Leon would at a weight class above? How about O'Malley?

You didn't comprehend my original post fully. Try reading it again, think it through, and then see if you think your reply is still valid.

 

[Nous]

So is that a UFC PFP or an MMA PFP list?

Where would you put MM on your list? Because personally I can't put Islam or Volk above MM even today in 2023.

I put MM below Islam and Volk, because I think MM those not fare as well against the top 5 in the weight class above him as both Islam and Volk do. And I dont think there is any difference in the other relevant dimensions for assessing PFP

 

[Paolo Delutis]

I know this is what some people think it means. But a basic contemplation reveals such an understanding to be wanting in terms of substance. Because you can't equalise in size and carry over the skills, and anyone with a basic understanding of anatomy and physics knows this. Lower weight classes can employe a different skill set because they're able to move faster. However, they are only able to move fast in virtue of having the physical attributes which puts them ina lower weightless. Hence there is no way to do skill transfer while trait equalising physical attributes across weight divisions. It is, in the literal sense of the word, physically impossible.

Naw but your not in visioning it correctly...

Its not FLW DJ scaled up...its as if DJ was never a FLW but a LHw...so his skills and some of his attributes carry over but not all...but we can assume DJ would be faster then Jones just based on fast twitch muscles DJ possesses... this by no means throws off the assessment as Jones was never known for his speed .. basically his FLW is just baseline reference for which his PFP body is referenced from based on what hes being compared at or which PFP opponent he's facing..

 

[chinarice]

You didn't comprehend my original post fully. Try reading it again, think it through, and then see if you think your reply is still valid.

My reply is very valid. You can't convince me a made up concept with 0 proof of any statement being made behind said made up concept is real.

P4P is made up. It's like all those fairytales in the bible. Just a bunch of made up silly shit.

 

[ultra321]

This is my first account.

I have always wanted to post. But waited to obtain my Phd in analytic philosophy before positing, so I could make sure my posts were of the sufficient quality I wanted them to be.

 

[sdpdude9]

You are wrong. How much better they are than the competition in their weight classes is in the majority of instances not subjective, because they fight the competition in their weight classes. Moreover how they would fare against competition in weight classes approximate to them is also not always subjective. Because sometimes they and fight in the weight classes above them, see Volk. Or they fight opponents who later move up and fight in weight classes above them.

Sure, there exists a dimension of subjectivity to some of the other metric which we ought to use to understand the PFP concept. However, i dom't think the subjectivity there is very pressing. Because we will still give reason for our claims, and reasons against the claims of those who disagree with us, and those reasons can be adjudicated to be better or worse.

Nah, it’s literally all subjective.

“the level of the competition in the top of a weight class”

How do we determine this objectively? You can’t. Who’s to say Heavyweight isn’t better competition than Lightweight?

“how much better they are than that competition.”

How is can one objectively conclude this? If Fighter A has 5 split decision wins against top opponents but Fighter B has 2 first round finishes over top opponents, how can one objectively say one is better than the other? It’s still a matter of opinion.

“how the level of competition in weight classes approximate to them”

Again, who’s to say? Determining that objectively is impossible.

“how well they could fare against that competition.”

In most instances, this is entirely subjective and using personal opinion. You cite Volkanovski, who had a singular fight at that weight class, then infer how he would fair against other competition in that weight class. That’s still personal opinion, you cannot objectively know this.

 

[MrFreeze]

Is there a p4p belt? A p4p competition? No
It's just a marketing exercise, a fun activity, it is not real, it is made up