Pepper spray, OC spray, capsicum spray, mace etc.

[Hotora86]

I searched for a thread on this topic, last one I found was from 2009 so I decided to start a new one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

I've started carrying Pepper spray last year and I do feel safer having it with me. Luckily I haven't had to really spray anyone but I did use it once to persuade a dog owner to recall his large dog when it ran toward my kid with possible bad intentions (it had no leash or muzzle). I aimed at the dog, not the owner.

I looked into legality (see wiki above) and was surprised to find that my country (Poland) had the most liberal approach to Pepper spray in the world! Sprays are not considered a weapon here and they can be carried by anyone without registration or permission.

The European Union does not regulate Pepper spray, leaving member countries free to regulate it themselves. Pepper sprays are illegal for civilians in: Belgium, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Netherlands, Norway. Pepper spray requires a license in Finland and many other non-EU countries.

In the United Kingdom Pepper spray is illegal under Section 5(1)(b) of the Firearms Act 1968: "A person commits an offence if [...] he has in his possession [...] any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing."

In the USA Pepper spray can be legally purchased and carried in all 50 states. Some states regulate the maximum allowed strength of the pepper spray, age restriction, content and use.

In Canada Pepper spray designed to be used against people is considered a prohibited weapon. Any similar canister with the labels reading "dog spray" or "bear spray", while legal to be carried by anyone, is against the law if its use causes "a risk of imminent death or serious bodily harm to another person".

All that being said - what is Your experience with Pepper spray?

• Is it legal where you live?
• Do you carry it around?
• Ever had to use it?
• Was it effective?

Thanks for your answers, looking forward to expanding my knowledge in this thread.

 

[genecop]

Are you a mailman?

 

[Hotora86]

Are you a mailman?

no

 

[genecop]

I’ll share this one story, an older women was doing a circumnavigation on her own, concerned about security and the gun laws being what they are around the world, she found a way to have a measure of safety..She had several fire extinguishers filled up with OC and kept them at various locations on her boat..I thought it was a good idea..

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I searched for a thread on this topic, last one I found was from 2009 so I decided to start a new one.

All that being said - what is Your experience with Pepper spray?

• Is it legal where you live?
• Do you carry it around?
• Ever had to use it?
• Was it effective?

Thanks for your answers, looking forward to expanding my knowledge in this thread.

I used to have a can of Counter Assault Bear Spray in the early 90s. It was tough stuff, I liked it.

Nowadays in Texas you can carry like 4oz or so of mace. Any more than that is prohibited and these days the stuff is a lot weaker than what they used to sell.
Some counties in Texas have funny laws about things like mace, and sticks etc, but you can carry a handgun , (with a license) or a rifle.

Anytime I'm out bicycle training I carry a CO2 BB pistol on the bicycle for straw dogs. Works better than mace.

There's usually a 45ACP in my vehicle.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

I’ll share this one story, an older women was doing a circumnavigation on her own, concerned about security and the gun laws being what they are around the world, she found a way to have a measure of safety..She had several fire extinguishers filled up with OC and kept them at various locations on her boat..I thought it was a good idea..

What was her plan for a fire?

 

[Gregolian]

What was her plan for a fire?

Die?

 

[evergreenrider]

I guess if I'm in bear country.

 

[rob mafia]

What was her plan for a fire?

well, at least she could make some sweet hot wings before she burns/drowns.

 

[Hotora86]

I used to have a can of Counter Assault Bear Spray in the early 90s. It was tough stuff, I liked it.

Nowadays in Texas you can carry like 4oz or so of mace. Any more than that is prohibited and these days the stuff is a lot weaker than what they used to sell.
Some counties in Texas have funny laws about things like mace, and sticks etc, but you can carry a handgun , (with a license) or a rifle.

Anytime I'm out bicycle training I carry a CO2 BB pistol on the bicycle for straw dogs. Works better than mace.

There's usually a 45ACP in my vehicle.

Have you ever had to use mace on people or animals?

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Have you ever had to use mace on people or animals?

Yes, i used the bear mace a couple times on dogs chasig me while cycling.

It worked quite well.

If i could still get the same ol good stuff, i'd buy another can.

I believe the old counter assault was 10%-20%

Now the Shit's like 2%
https://www.counterassault.com/bear-spray/

WTF, have the bears become pussies where more isn't necessary?

 

[Gregolian]

Have you ever had to use mace on people or animals?

I've been maced twice by accident... with cop stuff too and that shit SUCKS.

 

[jlagman]

Pro tip, it has an expiration date.

 

[Hotora86]

I've been maced twice by accident... with cop stuff too and that shit SUCKS.

Oh fuck. How did that happen? What's the feeling like? How long does it last?

 

[Gregolian]

Oh fuck. How did that happen? What's the feeling like? How long does it last?

First one was my dad and I cleaning out the garage when I was like7 or 8 and we found some old cop mace he had and he sprayed it out the garage door to see if it still worked and the shit floated back and hit me.

Second time was as a bouncer a cop went to use it on a giy that was fighting me and it hit me.

It fucking sucked.

 

[Protectandserve]

Been hit with it while fighting with a suspect. Got completely coated, both arms and my face.

It was effective enough to give me a chance to gain control of the guy. It sucked for me but I was able to keep going.

Was in a store and it affected a ton of other officers who showed to assist as well.

 

[Safton]

All that being said - what is Your experience with Pepper spray?

• Is it legal where you live?
• Do you carry it around?
• Ever had to use it?
• Was it effective?

Thanks for your answers, looking forward to expanding my knowledge in this thread.

Just necro'ing this for posterity's sake. Below I'll be providing info more on having been on the receiving end as much as having had to use it.

Spoiler

I have been told I am part of that weird, tiny percentage of people that OC doesn't affect like it does most of the population. Over the years I had a few token experiences with it at my old job (crew chief sprayed an aggressive dog, I caught some that lingered in the air but it didn't really do anything other than make my throat tickle). Ditto for when I first started working at my current job at the jail when I walked into blocks where other shifts had previously cut loose with the PepperBall.

My first experience taking an honest shot of OC was during a use-of-force incident. Long story short, I had a dude in a body lock, pinning one arm because I believed (correctly, as it later turned out) that he was reaching for a weapon inside his jumpsuit. My partner was spraying him at the same time and I caught some of the over-spray on the corner of my left eye. I distinctly remember my eyelid doing a bunch of rapid involuntarily twitches/spasms, but I managed to blink it out and basically continue at 100%. Everyone else -- even the backup officers who showed up minutes later -- was reduced to a coughing wreck just from walking into the block. My face felt like it had a mild sunburn and I scrubbed it with some Dawn dish soap in Medical and went on with my day. The two inmates who got sprayed acted like their faces had been doused in sulfuric acid. The first one turned away the moment he got hit and complied, the other (who had taken the time to "armor up" with blankets wrapped around his face/neck) managed to walk around and tussle a bit, but not very effectively... and he paid for it later in spades during decon.

Fast-forward to my official OC spray certification. It was supposed to just be a singular stripe just above my eyebrow which would -- in theory -- drip down across my face. My instructor landed low on my lip with the initial squirt and immediately did a motherfucking Zorro "Z" up across my entire face. Students were required to open their eyes, make eye contact with the instructor, verbally call out their name & agency, and then proceed to run an obstacle course that involved striking pads held by other students. At the end you had to handcuff & search a mock inmate before uncuffing them. Then, after all that was done, you were allowed to decon outside. Again... not as bad as it sounds. Throughout the entire course, the OC did fuck all to me. I had full vision and was only vaguely aware of a persistent burn on my forehead, basically like a bad sunburn I guess.

Things didn't really get truly bad until I started to decontaminate. That's when it really reached my eyes in earnest and caused them to involuntarily close, at which point it took me a while to force them open. It was more annoying than painful/distressing. The burn on my upper face intensified like hell during this time after the first bit of water hit me and it got pretty severe for a few minutes... Nothing insane -- I just stood there and took several deep breaths with the cool air on my face and before I knew it, I felt pretty much fine. Surprisingly the best relief isn't water or baby shampoo or milk or any of that shit, but rather a cold breeze. That's absolute heaven after you've been OC'd. Sure, get some water on you and some of the shampoo/soap/etc. to get what excess you can off your pores, but after that... just go stand in front of a strong fan or AC on full blast while focusing on your breathing.

I will note that the target matters a lot. For whatever reason I guess OC just doesn't affect me as much as it does others. While the instructor was complimenting me for my "calm composure" or whatever the fuck during decon, my partner meanwhile was literally hyperventilating and red in the face. I've seen/heard of the same phenomenon at the jail, too. Some inmates catch the tiniest bit of spray and act like you threw lava on them. Others have been doused from scalp to chin, calmly wiped it off with their sleeve, and then looked the officer in the eye before asking if they could go take a shower.

------------------------------

So to answer the questions directly:

• Yes, there are exceedingly few regulations on OC in my state (Georgia).
• Yes. At work I carry Sabre Red Crossfire (MK-3 1.5 oz, Stream) on my duty belt. When I'm on my time and out doing whatever, I carry a little pocket-sized canister of POM flip-top spray.
• No. Seen it used, but haven't personally used it yet. All the situations that got close I've luckily been able to de-escalate.
• Yeah -- in the one aforementioned where it happened in front of me, it more or less did its job and oh boy did both guys regret their life choices after the fact. That said, read above for the disclaimer and always have other options available to you.

 

[Hotora86]

Just necro'ing this for posterity's sake. Below I'll be providing info more on having been on the receiving end as much as having had to use it.

Spoiler

I have been told I am part of that weird, tiny percentage of people that OC doesn't affect like it does most of the population. Over the years I had a few token experiences with it at my old job (crew chief sprayed an aggressive dog, I caught some that lingered in the air but it didn't really do anything other than make my throat tickle). Ditto for when I first started working at my current job at the jail when I walked into blocks where other shifts had previously cut loose with the PepperBall.

My first experience taking an honest shot of OC was during a use-of-force incident. Long story short, I had a dude in a body lock, pinning one arm because I believed (correctly, as it later turned out) that he was reaching for a weapon inside his jumpsuit. My partner was spraying him at the same time and I caught some of the over-spray on the corner of my left eye. I distinctly remember my eyelid doing a bunch of rapid involuntarily twitches/spasms, but I managed to blink it out and basically continue at 100%. Everyone else -- even the backup officers who showed up minutes later -- was reduced to a coughing wreck just from walking into the block. My face felt like it had a mild sunburn and I scrubbed it with some Dawn dish soap in Medical and went on with my day. The two inmates who got sprayed acted like their faces had been doused in sulfuric acid. The first one turned away the moment he got hit and complied, the other (who had taken the time to "armor up" with blankets wrapped around his face/neck) managed to walk around and tussle a bit, but not very effectively... and he paid for it later in spades during decon.

Fast-forward to my official OC spray certification. It was supposed to just be a singular stripe just above my eyebrow which would -- in theory -- drip down across my face. My instructor landed low on my lip with the initial squirt and immediately did a motherfucking Zorro "Z" up across my entire face. Students were required to open their eyes, make eye contact with the instructor, give their name & agency, and then proceed to run an obstacle course that involved striking pads held other students. At the end you had to handcuff & search a mock inmate before uncuffing them. Then, after all that was done, you were allowed to decon outside. Again... not as bad as it sounds. Throughout the entire course, the OC did fuck all to me. I had full vision and was only vaguely aware of a persistent burn on my forehead, basically like a bad sunburn I guess.

Things didn't really get "bad" until I started to decontaminate. That's when it really reached my eyes in earnest and caused them to involuntarily close, at which point it took me a while to force them open. It was more annoying than painful/distressing. The burn on my upper face intensified like hell during this time after the first bit of water hit me, got pretty intense for a few minutes... and then I was pretty much fine. Surprisingly the best relief isn't water or baby shampoo or milk or any of that shit, but rather a cold breeze. That's absolute heaven after you've been OC'd. Sure, get some water on you and some of the shampoo to get what excess you can off your pores, but after that... just go stand in front of a fan or AC on full blast while taking deep breaths.

I will note that the target matters a lot. For whatever reason I guess OC just doesn't affect me as much as it does others. While the instructor was complimenting me for my "calm composure" or whatever the fuck during decon, my partner meanwhile was literally hyperventilating and red in the face. I've seen/heard of the same phenomenon at the jail, too. Some inmates catch the tiniest bit of spray and act like you threw lava on them. Others have been doused from scalp to chin, calmly wiped it off with their sleeve, and then looked the officer in the eye before asking if they could go take a shower.

------------------------------

So to answer the questions directly:

• Yes, there are exceedingly few regulations on OC in my state (Georgia).
• Yes. At work I carry Sabre Red Crossfire (MK-3 1.5 oz, Stream) on my duty belt. When I'm on my time and out doing whatever, I carry a little pocket-sized canister of POM flip-top spray.
• No. Seen it used, but haven't personally used it yet. All the situations that got close I've luckily been able to deescalate.
• Yeah -- in the one situation where it happened in front of me, it more or less did its job and oh boy did both guys regret their life choices after the fact. That said, read above for the disclaimer.

Thanks for the long post Sherbro!
I was considering getting it back when I asked the question - and I did.

I now carry it at all times and it feels good to have it. I've only used it once on an aggressive dog - it worked very well, dog ran away.

 

[Safton]

Thanks for the long post Sherbro!
I was considering getting it back when I asked the question - and I did.

I now carry it at all times and it feels good to have it. I've only used it once on an aggressive dog - it worked very well, dog ran away.

Glad to hear it!

I have a concealed carry permit, but don't actually carry a firearm these days for the most part and just carry OC instead. I never feel like I'm missing out. For what it's worth, your story is very common -- I suspect pepper spray has been used to deter more attacks by dogs than people. Other than that one incident in the jail, the only other time I've had it deployed in front of me was at my old job (land surveying) on an aggressive canine. It... sort of worked? The dog seemed more puzzled & confused than distressed, but it seemed to short-circuit its aggression at least lol.

I think OC is a great tool. It has a low barrier to entry in regards to training to gain & retain proficiency when compared to firearms, knives, Tasers, and empty-hand skills. It also has a lower bar for when it can be legally used in most jurisdictions since it's not lethal force. Someone who's unarmed but aggressively posturing toward you doesn't deserve a bullet (legally or ethically), but it might be dicey to try and flee or continue verbally de-escalating... so maybe a good dousing is just what you need to either settle them down or give you an opening to escape. It's the ideal middle ground between a harsh word and a trigger.

I think the only baggage is that there's a very high likelihood you'll end up catching at least a bit of it too, so I'd recommend most people who regularly carry it try to expose themselves to some of in a controlled environment so they're not caught totally off-guard when it happens under stress. And yes, as mentioned above, some people just aren't bothered by it so have other options or a Plan B in mind.

 

[Safton]

Well, as it happens, I had a new use-of-force this past week. My first personal deployment of OC. The results weren't great, but with caveats. The subject is a guy we'll call DG, who is... emotionally-disturbed. Absolutely one of the most volatile mental health cases I've seen pass through the jail in my year working there, which is saying a lot. He's also a big guy, about 6'0" and over 300 pounds.

We had him housed in an isolation cell in a back hall attached to the rear of our Booking area. We use the cell for disciplinary lockdown, quarantine, and administrative overflow. The hall in question also has a few more rooms which contain inmate property and whatnot, so we occasionally go in there to search for stuff regardless of if we have to deal with whoever's housed in the isolation cell. That was the case for me. It was late afternoon and I entered the corridor to go towards one of the storage rooms. Central Control misunderstood my radio traffic and/or my intentions and ended up popping DG's isolation cell and the dude immediately came marching out and towards me like he was on a mission.

In hindsight, I let him get way too close and half-corner me against one wall. I bladed my stance, raised my left arm up as a post to keep some measure of distance and also so I'd have something to parry with in case he swung on me (for a moment I thought he might). The entire time, DG is ranting about the FBI and kidnapping and space aliens and this and that. I calmly told him to go back to his cell a few times, tried to de-escalate as I had managed to do with him previously. Told him we could talk about all of this once he was back at his cell. Meanwhile, my right hand had unsnapped my OC holster on my hip just in case. My de-escalation almost worked. He half-turned and began walking back, but then it was like something inside him snapped. He turned on me and lunged, trying to grab my left arm.

I swatted his hand down and swam my left inside to snatch up a sort of frame/half-collar tie, grabbing him by the collar. I shit you not, I held him there by the collar/lapel and brought my OC can up with my right and dumped the entire thing almost point-blank into his face. Distance of maybe two-and-a-half feet, max. DG angled his face away from the spray for a brief moment, but then turned right back into me to start wrestling. My can felt just about dry, so I tossed it on the ground and obliged him. We basically ended up having a sloppy Greco-Roman/WWE cage match in the back hall, both clinched up with each other trying to take each other down and failing, slamming one another into walls, going for headlocks, etc.

Shortly thereafter my partner showed up and by that point I had managed to get the better of the exchange and drive DG into the wall and pin him there with aggressive head position plus wrist control on his left arm via my right hand. I was using my own left arm to reach for a collar tie. Meanwhile, DG starts using his free hand to grab for shit on my vest, namely my flashlight. I told him to stop reaching. My partner -- who was working to try and restrain the other side of this enormous dude -- heard this and began trying to wrench DG's arm away while driving hard knee strikes into his legs and shovel hooks into his ribs while giving verbal commands to let go of me and give up his hand. Soon my Sergeant arrived and she and my partner were able to use his cuffs plus mine (he was so big we needed both sets) to first cuff his right arm, at which point I fed the arm I had wrist control on around behind the dude's back until I could reach it with the collar tie. It wasn't quite a shoulder lock/crank, but it was close. Then I spun him and passed the limb to them so they could finish the cuffing process and we shoved him back into his cell as a team, all while he was still fighting us. We ended up waiting until Night Shift showed up for the extra manpower in order to go down there with a Taser and some shock gloves in order to extricate him and get him to Medical so he could be evaluated and have the cuffs removed before being decontaminated.

Random notes/lessons learned:

-- As I mentioned above... OC is a fantastic tool, but some people are built different. I dumped the entire canister into the guy's face from clinch range and he ate that shit like I had hit him with a squirt gun. Didn't care one bit. In the process of wrestling him, I also got covered in the stuff, which pretty much confirmed my previous suspicions that it doesn't really affect me much, either. I finished my shift without issue. The shower that night sucked, though -- the reactivation/decontamination symptoms were again a hundred times worse than initial exposure. Not sure why.

-- If you're using OC in a confined space, everyone's gonna get it. After I cut loose, that entire hall became a no man's land for anyone walking in for hours afterward. Ditto for the hallway outside... and the one next to that... so on and so forth. Even with a Stream instead of a Fogger, OC is and always will be an indiscriminate weapon to some degree. Even more so if you have to fight/restrain the target afterward.

-- Don't fight EDPs if you can avoid it. Beyond the moral/ethical issues involved (these people deserve all the compassion in the world), the stories I once assumed to be hyperbole are true. In addition to the OC not working, this guy was freakishly strong -- especially in terms of isometric strength. At one point during the scuffle he literally grabbed the handcuff pouch that was stitched with heavy-duty thread onto my duty belt and tore it clean off in one fluid motion. Trying to move him was like trying to move a brick wall. When my partner unloaded strikes into the back of his kneecap, DG didn't even react except to develop a slight limp 30 minutes later after the adrenaline wore off.

-- I need to get back to training. I plan to start back in January, but I'd really like to complement my BJJ with some wrestling and Muay Thai. I had a great opening to throw some knees of my own while I had clinch control against the wall, but I held myself. I have been told by all of the old heads and my peers that in hindsight that this was a mistake and next time I shouldn't be afraid to throw strikes in that sort of situation.