People accusing Royce Gracie of fixing fights

i didnt expect you to remember every one. you made a thread about videos, and didn't post any videos. i simply asked which ones.

yes its a legit question. someone with basic knowledge of early mma would be very aware that fights can be fixed in many ways, and there were many fights that were fixed in those times. im a judo black belt and a bjj purple belt.

You forgot to put "Am" at the start of your post to properly frame it as a question and not a statement.
First of all the burden of the proof should be on the person who make a statement, especially if like in the videos I mentioned it's not presented as a possibility but as a fact.
If someone claim aliens are controlling the earth they should provide reasons why they believe it's true, I'm not the one who is supposed to disprove them.

But I'm still going to answer your question:
-if you fix your fights you are not going to willingly receive flurries of elbows to the head, you are not going to receive full power punches to the head by guys that outweighted you by 40-80 lbs that could have very well knocked you out, you are not letting a guy bite a piece of your ear off, and you are not going to come out of a fight so beaten and exhausted that you could not continue in the tournament and you had to throw the towel due to dhydatration.

Moreover people would not stomp each other heads, deliver brutal groud and pound to an already unconscious opponent and suffer all the horrorific injuries they did in the early ufc's just to advance in the bracket of a tournament they already know they are supposed to lose, especially considering it was a very low budget tournament with very little money involved.

-It didn't even made sense from a business perspective for the Gracie's to try to fix fights, if they tried to bribe someone and they refused and called them out on the spot instead they would ruin their credibility and reputation forever, and it was far from unlikely as an outcome considering how little money were involved and how disliked they were in the martial arts community at the times.
If you lose a fight you can chalk it up to a fluke and try again the next time, if you ruin your credibility it's game over, they were not dumb enough to risk like that, especially considering there was no need to, they were already confident they would win because their opponents were not prepared for BJJ while they were used to do and win style vs style No holds barred fights since forever and they perfectly knew what to expect.

It's not a coincidence that Renzo dominated the 1995 WCC and Rickson dominated Vale Tudo Japan too in the exact same fashion as Royce, despite the Gracie not being involved with the creation of said events.

There was too much too lose and too little necessity for them to try to fix fights in that period.

-Also you are not letting your matches go on for more than 5 minutes, which is something Royce did several times, letting alone 15 minutes if the fight is fixed since the longer a fight goes the more likely is to notice if it's fake.

Then we have how the fights themselves played out in detail, they looked exactly like all the thousand and thousand grapplers vs strikers fight we have seen in all kind of situations (and some of us have also been involved too), all the beavhiours, movements, speed, intensity level etc.... looked natural and made sense, there was nothing fishy or suspect or "innatural looking" about them, and we all know how difficult it's too make a worked/staged fight believable while at the same time clearly going at full effort and intensity.
Not to mention the potentiallly fight ending damage that the "designated winner" received in a lot of them that I mentioned before (eg Royce being punched in the face full force by Kimo and Keith Hackey).
Honestly it's not hard to tell an undoubtedly real fight from one where it's possible (altough not certain) that it's fake.

You forgot to put "Am" at the start of your post to properly frame it as a question and not a statement.

Silly me for thinking that putting a question mark at the end of the sentence would be enough.

and there were many fights that were fixed in those times

The only confirmed one in UFC history lasted 10 seconds with no damage involved, which is actually the most logical way to fix a fight, it's too short to notice it's fake and the competitors are not risking their health with unneccesary brain damage.
The other confirmed ones were japanese fights were it was painfully obvious they were fixed, which further reinforce my point about it usually not being very hard to tell.
 
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Esile maybe you're confused.

To my knowledge no one has made verifiable or speculative claims that fights were actually fixed in UFC 1, but there are some who have complained (Bill Wallace) that the tournament was a set up.

A tournament can be set up for one guy to win with factors such as bracket placement and picked opponents, but with real fights that are not fixed.

I'm not aware of anyone who suggests with any evidence that there were any actual works (with a "work" referencing a fixed fight in which one or both fighters plans to end the fight in a predetermined non competitive way) in UFC 1.

There may have been some works in Pride, that's a different story.
 
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Esile maybe you're confused.

To my knowledge no one has made verifiable or speculative claims that fights were actually fixed in UFC 1, but there are some who have complained (Bill Wallace) that the tournament was a set up.

A tournament can be set up for one guy to win with factors such as bracket placement and picked opponents, but with real fights that are not fixed.

I'm not aware of anyone who suggests with any evidence that there were any actual works (with a "work" referencing a fixed fight in which one or both fighters plans to end the fight in a predetermined non competitive way) in UFC 1.
I mean, put yourself in the shoes of someone who don't know shit about the history of MMA, you watch a video titled "gracie ufc conspiracy" and it's feasible you are going to jump to conclusions even if

There may have been some works in Pride, that's a different story.
No man, I'm not confused, I even posted a couple of examples of youtube video with such comments in this thread, altough you have to scroll down the comments to find them.

Of course there is zero evidence to these claim, they just say "royce fights were fixed" without any source or logical reason behind.

Since it's something recent I suppose those are people who watched the Bill Wallace video and misunderstood what he was saying, so they mistakenly believe he was implying the fights were fixed.
I mean, put yourself in the shoes of someone who don't know shit about the history of MMA, he watches a video titled "gracie ufc conspiracy" narrated with a similar tone and it's not that unlikely he is going to jump to such conclusions even if they were never explicity stated in the video.
 
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He fought Ken which is the best win of his career along with Severn but Ken wasn't allowed to wear wrestling shoes while he could wear the gi and he used it by grabbing his own belt to get a choke.


Royce's sub on Ken was just a rear naked choke w/ no hooks.

UFC-1-Royce-Gracie-vs-Ken-Shamrock.jpg
 
(altough I always wondered why a very dangerous opponent like Shamrock was there, they could not find anyone easier than a roided up submission wrestler?).
They trusted that submission wrestling was utter shit way back in the day? Ken went for a retarded leg lock.
What the really had to avoid was a good wrestler who had some boxing.
 
They trusted that submission wrestling was utter shit way back in the day? Ken went for a retarded leg lock.
Their ground game was surely utter shit compared to more sophisticated form of grappling, but if I were the Gracie's I would still have not taken the chance, with such a strenght and athleticism difference some outdated submission wrestling experience is all you need to have a very good chance of beating Royce.
 
I thought a very good win for Royce that not many mention was his victory over
Remco Pardoe. Remco, a ju jitsu expert in his own right, and much larger than Royce, and Royce subbed him early and without much difficulty.
 
I agree that if they are fixing the fights I don't think I would have put him ( 170lb skinny Royce ) up against Dan ( experienced/accomplished wrestler with a huge size adv), Ken ( submission wrestler with a body of a Greek God ), Keith Hackney ( just a tough as nails dude who was willing to throw down ) and Kimo ( another massive guy with size/weight adv )... IMO : - )
I do remember tho that Oleg would train at the Gracie academy from time to time
 
I thought a very good win for Royce that not many mention was his victory over
Remco Pardoe. Remco, a ju jitsu expert in his own right, and much larger than Royce, and Royce subbed him early and without much difficulty.
Yes but the Gracies handpicked Remco Pardoel because they knew he was a judo guy who liked harai makikomi, so they knew Royce would beat him because Remco would give his back trying to throw Royce.

At least, if you follow the logic in this thread, that's what you might believe.
 
They were obviously not fixed fights and almost no one says that but they were arranged so Royce would be favoured to win.
He fought hobbyist strikers with no grappling who had no idea how to prepare while Royce had years to prepare.

He fought Ken which is the best win of his career along with Severn but Ken wasn't allowed to wear wrestling shoes while he could wear the gi and he used it by grabbing his own belt to get a choke.

They cherry picked his opponents and don't let Taktarov or Ruas compete when Royce was there or anyone who would be a threat.
Can you imagine if he had fought Tank Abbot or Frye,guys he could not take down and who could bang? He would have got brutalized.

Rorion even challenged Benny the Jet until he found out he had trained grappling with Gene Lebell.
Many things were stacked in their favour then they got out on top when the wrestlers started entering. Even Severn who had 5 days preparation claims he could have hurt Royce badly on the ground but didn't want to when he had total control since he wasn't used to hitting people.
To call it a fair tournament is also ridiculous , so this is the type of 'arranging' that happened.

With Bill Wallace, commentator of UFC 1.

He didn’t grab his own belt moron, it was a clean rnc...
 
I understand why you might think that, and obviously I'm just another goon on the internet so you won't believe me, but I know for a fact they hand picked everyone. They needed some guys who might actually beat Royce to make it legit, but they were all hand picked. Davis was not involved in picking fighters. No, I am not an insider, but someone I know very well was/is, and so I trust my source. The Gracie family hand picked everyone in the 1st UFC.

who did you exactly expected to show up to a nhb tournament for 50k? Mike fucking Tyson? Karelin..: dude 2 working brain cells... ken as he proved later on, was pretty damn dangerous for Royce to beat.. you would think they wouldn’t want a 220 pounds roid monster shootfighrwr close to Royce, still happened. Yeah of course they hand picked fighters, but you could not realistically expect the top Olympians to go fight at ufc 1, or top boxers, for 50k, that is moronic
 
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who did you exactly expected to show up to a nhb tournament for 50k? Mike fucking Tyson? Karelin..: dude 2 working brain cells... ken as he proved later on, was pretty damn dangerous for Royce to beat.. you would think they wouldn’t want a 220 pounds roid monster shootfighrwr close to Royce, still happened. Yeah of course they hand picked fighters, but you could not realistically expect the top Olympians to go fight at ufc 1, or top boxers, for 50k, that is moronic
It's easy to forget that the UFC wasn't this established prestigious tournament. It was a freakshow.
 
people talk mention " how about so and so world champion judoka?" . Do these people realize that medalist judoka were making crossing over into professional wrestling in japan?

Pride had to pay ogawa millions .
 
people talk mention " how about so and so world champion judoka?" . Do these people realize that medalist judoka were making crossing over into professional wrestling in japan?

Pride had to pay ogawa millions .

this...
 
Not sure what you're so upset about. I said they hand picked all the fighters at ufc 1, that's it. What you're going on about here is anyone's guess but since I addressed everything you said here previously I'm not sure what you think you're arguing with me about but good luck with that.
Cause like mqny, your making it look like it was fixed and taking credibility of the event away by saying “I know from inside they hand picked fighters” yeah no shit, they’ve put announces in magazines looking for fighters willing to step up, there was no internet back then, there was no profesional Mma either, the closest thing was pancreas and shoots... well they got ken... who was hand picked. Tired of morons conspiraciest who love to shit on anyone with the Gracie last name. No, Tyson wasn’t going to fight Royce or anyone, hell no elite sport combat athlete at that time was stupid enough to get in a full on nhb 1 night tournament for 50k winner takes it all. That would’ve been ridiculous... anyways Ralph called out Tyson and offered 1 millón dollars in 1995... or course that was pocket change for mike, yet he didn’t even bother answering the call
 
Yes but the Gracies handpicked Remco Pardoel because they knew he was a judo guy who liked harai makikomi, so they knew Royce would beat him because Remco would give his back trying to throw Royce.

At least, if you follow the logic in this thread, that's what you might believe.

Thank you, very informative about Remco, I didn't know the extent of his ju jitsu experience, so I learned new things here about that match due to you
 
Thank you, very informative about Remco, I didn't know the extent of his ju jitsu experience, so I learned new things here about that match due to you
Dude I was joking. Remco Pardoel was a heavyweight world class judoka. Anyone who thinks he got handpicked for Royce to beat him is a dumbass.
 
Dude I was joking. Remco Pardoel was a heavyweight world class judoka. Anyone who thinks he got handpicked for Royce to beat him is a dumbass.
yeah, like I said, I dont hear that match discussed much in Royce's body of work, but I really consider the speed and ease that he won, and the grappling skill and size and strength of Remco, for that to be one of his best wins
 
Also what 'lies' are u referring to with the Superfoot Wallace vid?

I'm going to answer to this question because I definitely have way too much free time on my hands.

This is the list of lies or false statement Wallace did in the video:

-He claimed there were nobody with grappling experience at UFC 1, "they were six strikers and a sumo guy, no grapplers", but that's wrong, Shamrock was a submission wrestler.

-He claimed nobody know how to defend Royce's double leg and that's the only reason he won.
Except Shamrock sprawled on Royce's double leg and put him on his butt, and lost anyway.

Also, why he is not talking about how there were plenty of good grapplers (sambo guys, judo guys and wrestler) in UFC 2 and 4 and Royce won them anyway?
It doesn't make sense to limit his argument to UFC 1 since the following events had the same format, happened in the same period and were really just an extension of the first.

-He claimed Royce choked Shamrock with his belt, which is false, it was a regular RNC like showed in the pictures in this very thread.

-He claimed people other than Royce were not allowed to wear uniforms from their sport, but that's also false, Art Jimmerson wore one boxing glove and in the following events there were plenty of judo and karate guys with their GI.

The only limitations were that if you decided to wear shoes you were not allowed to kick, and that you could not wear elbow pads and shin guards, full stop.
Art Davis explained it in his book "is that legal?".

-Then we have not only a lie, but also a logical contradiction between his own statements:
He told that the Sumo guy was declared defeated by the referee despite being unharmed and able to continue, because "the Gracie's knew he was too big for Royce to defeat him".

Not only the "he could have continued" statement is a lie (Telia Tuli was unable to continue because Gerard's kick shattered his nose and jaw), but it also contradict the premise that the fighters were handipicked because they were easy opponents for Royce.
If they handpicked the opponents, why pick an opponent they knew Royce was unable to beat and that they had to trick out of the tournament by declaring him unable to continue even if he wasn't? What if Telia easily squashed Gordeau and went on to fight Royce? Bill's logic doesn't make any sense.

Moreover Royce submitted Akebono, who was 100 lbs heavier than Tuli and a way better sumoka, Tuli was far from invicible for him.
I find likely they called him exactly because Royce submitting a 400 lbs behemoth would have sold BJJ very well.

Moreover Bill knew all along that Telia was too injured to keep fighting and the stoppage was the right call, as you can see in this old black belt magazine letter where he criticized the brutality of the UFC and he reported in detail the injuries Telia suffered, so he was consciously lying in the youtube video:
https://books.google.it/books?id=E9...iew=1&pg=PA16&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

To me it seem he disliked the Gracie's succes and how they exposed point Karate and traditional martial arts, hurting Bill's renowed status as a badass in the process, so at the time he tried to boycot the UFC by playing the "it's too barbaric, we should not allow it" card.
Now in 2021 the ship has sailed because MMA has become extremely popular and it's totally accepted as a combat sport by the public, so he changed tactic and tried to hurt their legimatacy with this "conspiracy" crap video on youtube.
 
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