PED's cannot be a legacy disqualifier and here's why

[GrantB13]

I could agree with the first two points because of lack of evidence and plausible deniability. The third point makes no sense in a sport. It falls into the "if you're not cheating you're not trying" mentality which is just what cheaters try to tell themselves to cover up a shitty moral outlook on the spirit of fair competition.

 

[Fedora Millionankles]

PED is for recovery. It does not give you a proper skillset which is rooted in monotonous fundamental training which lot of headstrong figters find boring as hell.

Tons of roided up meat head fighters wailing on the bag and mindlessly brawling in sparring and yet they have shit footwork, no jab, no proper way of level changing or having their hands up or ready to defend and counter.

I’d say that increased strength and endurance aren’t recovery based. Even so, if you can recover faster/better, you can push harder and achieve unnatural gains.
There is a reason they are banned across most sports.

 

[Ogata]

PED's don't just suddenly make people good.
People need to train to be good.
PED's more easily allow people to train longer and harder.

The plane ride to that destination had one layover, so you decided to cancel the whole trip. Nice job. Genius travel planning, my guy

Did you quote the wrong post?


I already mentioned recovery. But no amount of recovery is going to give you a skillset if training or trainer is crap.

 

[fica]

PEDs usage disquilify you from being a goat. If you are can and suddenly start using peds it is seen but if you good from begining that means you are ped user for life time if you are cought multiple times like JJ

 

[Mike]

I could agree with the first two points because of lack of evidence and plausible deniability. The third point makes no sense in a sport. It falls into the "if you're not cheating you're not trying" mentality which is just what cheaters try to tell themselves to cover up a shitty moral outlook on the spirit of fair competition.

This is the big one to me as well. Frankly, it's insulting to me when people take it as a given that everyone thinks this way. No, insecure losers think that everyone cheats at everything and they could never win without resorting to cheating, so everyone else must be that way.

You see this even in "casual" competition and it's sad how many people can't risk taking an L. Part of reaching your full potential in anything is learning what to do when you run into someone that is just better than you are. If you live in fear of that and cut every corner to win even when you shouldn't, you'll never be your best at anything you do imo.

 

[Fedora Millionankles]

Did you quote the wrong post?


I already mentioned recovery. But no amount of recovery is going to give you a skillset if training or trainer is crap.

What you lack in skillset can be offset with better strength and more endurance.

 

[mahavishnunj]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

Incorrect apostrophes however, ARE a legacy disqualifier.

 

[jx820]

The aspect that bothers me most of all is that people will pick which kind of cheating is OK and which isn't based on the outcome they're looking for.

Why is greasing OK, but PEDs destroy your legacy... because you like GSP and don't like Jones. Why are rope/cage grabbing, groin strikes, eye pokes all OK? because you like the guy that did those things.

There aren't any clean fighters, just guys you like and guys you don't. The mortality and outrage are a sliding scale based on that principle.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

The aspect that bothers me most of all is that people will pick which kind of cheating is OK and which isn't based on the outcome they're looking for.

Why is greasing OK, but PEDs destroy your legacy... because you like GSP and don't like Jones. Why are rope/cage grabbing, groin strikes, eye pokes all OK? because you like the guy that did those things.

There aren't any clean fighters, just guys you like and guys you don't. The mortality and outrage are a sliding scale based on that principle.

It was decided before any of us ever thought about it: that fouls are warnable and would have to do a measurable amount of disruption to be a no contest and in rare cases of the most extreme examples, ultimately disqualifiable. However, any presence of banned substances is almost always immediately nullifying of any results and turns into fighter suspensions. Not only do your fights not count, but you'll be unable to fight again for a period of time. That doesn't happen with cage grabs, eye pokes, and groin strikes

It's not like fans just arbitrarily drew these lines as you seem to suggest. They already existed

 

[Chayanne]

If the UFC was a normal sports company like FIFA, UEFA or the Tour de France, Jon Jones would be the Lance Armstrong of the UFC.

 

[Ogata]

What you lack in skillset can be offset with better strength and more endurance.

Yes I am not denying that but if someone trains like an idiot like mindless brawling, they will take PEDS to recover and then they will continue their shitty training so they can take in more damage.


This is fine if the skillsets are similar. But Anderson had a skillset many notches above his opponents.


If skillsets are close to each other than yes the PED guy will win.

 

[jx820]

It was decided before any of us ever thought about it: that fouls are warnable and would have to do a measurable amount of disruption to be a no contest and in rare cases of the most extreme examples, ultimately disqualifiable. However, any presence of banned substances is almost always immediately nullifying of any results and turns into fighter suspensions. Not only do your fights not count, but you'll be unable to fight again for a period of time. That doesn't happen with cage grabs, eye pokes, and groin strikes

It's not like fans just arbitrarily drew these lines as you seem to suggest. They already existed

What the rules say, and what the fans say can be entirely separate.

If I'm Khabib or Damian Maia I'd MUCH rather fight a guy on PEDs than a guy that's greasing. There are clear cut instances where illegal strikes and maneuvers have not only cost a fighter the fight, but directly led to the loser being concussed. It's demonstrable and measureable and we can see it in real time.

PEDs may or may not effect an outcome on fight night, but greasing and eye pokes absolutely do.

I think the entire fan base and the ABC are looking at things ass backwards. I think it's crazy how we let fouls slide unpunished and treat it as if it's not a big deal. I can't imagine a reason why every fighter doesn't start with an eye poke and a groin strike since the first one is a freebie.

Most of all, I still think the objection is disingenuous and we know for a fact it's applied unevenly.

 

[Alpha_T83]

All I read was "I'm a degenerate Jon Jones fan, and I don't want his legacy ruined by his PED failures!!! waahhhhhhh waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh".

The vultures are going to descend on Jon's career once he retires. It's inevitable. He's being protected by the UFC & Dana White right now because he's making the UFC money. Once they don't make money off him, they'll discard him like a piece of trash. Then eventually he will be removed from GOAT lists 10-20 years from now for his PED failures.

 

[rstringer]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

You are ,.right let's give Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong their medals back smh

 

[TheComputerGuy]

The aspect that bothers me most of all is that people will pick which kind of cheating is OK and which isn't based on the outcome they're looking for.

Why is greasing OK, but PEDs destroy your legacy... because you like GSP and don't like Jones. Why are rope/cage grabbing, groin strikes, eye pokes all OK? because you like the guy that did those things.

There aren't any clean fighters, just guys you like and guys you don't. The mortality and outrage are a sliding scale based on that principle.

All of those lead to a loss of point or a DQ. At least they are supposed too.

 

[TheComputerGuy]

All I read was "I'm a degenerate Jon Jones fan, and I don't want his legacy ruined by his PED failures!!! waahhhhhhh waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh".

The vultures are going to descend on Jon's career once he retires. It's inevitable. He's being protected by the UFC & Dana White right now because he's making the UFC money. Once they don't make money off him, they'll discard him like a piece of trash. Then eventually he will be removed from GOAT lists 10-20 years from now for his PED failures.

Dana will turn on Jones once he isn't making him money. No way Dana will call a 3 time drug cheat the GOAT. Josh Barnett is one of the best HW, but since he popped 3 times most people never will talk about him. Jones is going into that group when he retires.

 

[MMAJunkie]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

I see no difference with taking steriods or 57 supplements to mimic steriods that are approved by people who don't train are healthy at all.

 

[jx820]

All of those lead to a loss of point or a DQ. At least they are supposed too.

I agree, they are supposed to. Generally, they do not.

And we all go with it. Because realistically we don't dislike cheating; we dislike fighters... and when those fighters cheat, it's bad.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

What the rules say, and what the fans say can be entirely separate.

If I'm Khabib or Damian Maia I'd MUCH rather fight a guy on PEDs than a guy that's greasing. There are clear cut instances where illegal strikes and maneuvers have not only cost a fighter the fight, but directly led to the loser being concussed. It's demonstrable and measureable and we can see it in real time.

PEDs may or may not effect an outcome on fight night, but greasing and eye pokes absolutely do.

I think the entire fan base and the ABC are looking at things ass backwards. I think it's crazy how we let fouls slide unpunished and treat it as if it's not a big deal. I can't imagine a reason why every fighter doesn't start with an eye poke and a groin strike since the first one is a freebie.

Most of all, I still think the objection is disingenuous and we know for a fact it's applied unevenly.

Again, people picked lines that were preset in the sand. Fouls are more justifiable because they happen on an individual basis and can be identified as such. So therefore, those specific fights can or at least should see them held accountable on those specific fights (It's only when someone does something rampantly, like Jones needing a rule written about his eyepokes that we start to apply it to their career, which we also do for Jones, not just his PED use). Contrast this to PEDs where the effect is accumulative and not narrowed down to a specific fight. It's WHY their whole career becomes a question. No one's asking "Hey, when we found out Leon was an eye poker against Belal, do you think there's any chance that had something to do with him beating RDA?"

PED's unquestionably effect performance, it's why the result is a no contest. The level to which it does can be questioned by not debated with visual objective evidence like a foul does, so that's partly why they're automatic NC's and not DQ's

Fouls going unpunished is a HUGE problem, I fully agree there. But it seems counterintuitive to raise a fuzz about how unaccountable people are for the fouls they commit while also advocating for LESS accountability of roid cheats. To me, that's incredibly disingenuous. "I want to break the rule to hit my opponent in the groin" vs "I want to put foreign agents into my body to allow every hit I land on my opponent to be more destructive" are both shitty, and the lesser one may escape punishment more, but it's still clearly lesser.

 

[jx820]

But it seems counterintuitive to raise a fuzz about how unaccountable people are for the fouls they commit while also advocating for LESS accountability of roid cheats.

I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm fine with either accepting that athletes cheat, or not.

I'm not OK with "The way my favorite fighter cheats is OK, but the way the guy I don't like cheats is bad and here's the appropriate punishment".