PED's cannot be a legacy disqualifier and here's why

[AldoStillGoat]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

 

[omawho402]

This is a pipe dream, but I wish there was a way to make ped legal and still test for them. So that way we as fans know who is using and who isn't and can make our own judgments. At least there would be transparency.

 

[kneebartotheface]

Cos peds are cool. Let's be honest.

No one wants natty soy boy as champ. Give me roid monster.

 

[CombatCyborg]

The circumstances of Spider popping vs. Jon are totally different

 

[fortheo]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

Counter argument from boredom:

1. You're right. The time they popped was the first and only time they ever took them. Also, peds have long lasting effects, putting people at an advantage years after taking them.

I don't need to know the extent that it helped a fighter. I just need to know that they took something against the rules to get an unfair advantage. You think usada was like, "these peds didn't help that guy bench 350, soo......we'll let it slide"? No. The extent it helped is irrelevant. They wouldn't be cheating if it didn't benefit them in some way.

2. We absolutely have proof of some who used. Ignoring those who popped just because testing can't catch them all is stupid. It is like never trying to get pussy just because you only have a 1 percent success rate. Also, you're doing the burden of proof falacy by ignoring evidence of guilt and telling all of us to get proof of everyone else's innocence.

3. Results do matter .......Test results, too.

 

[Johnnny]

This is a pipe dream, but I wish there was a way to make ped legal and still test for them. So that way we as fans know who is using and who isn't and can make our own judgments. At least there would be transparency.

Many PED's seldom show up on tests. There are often no tests for newly created PED's. After meldonium was banned, the Russian State Doping Program bragged that they had developed an even more effective PED that doesn't show up on tests.

 

[World eater]

I can disqualify whomever I want for whatever reason because goat lists are dumb and I can make my own dumb list.
Plus, everyone knows it’s Fedor.

 

[fjodor]

everyone is on the sauce. It's extremely hard to be a top fighter without taking. The benefits are too much to compete natty against an enhanced athlete.

 

[krelianx]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career. You don't know the extent to which it aided the fighter.
2. You have no proof who used and who didn't.
3. Results matter. You can sit there and complain that this guy was not fighting fair and that guy was not fighting fair but at the end of the day someone got their ass beat and the other created their legacy.

For these reasons, I think it is unfair that you marginalize someones accomplishments by saying that they cannot be GOAT. It makes no sense and creating false qualifications makes the entire discussion more murky while bringing a black eye to the sport. Better to celebrate these fighters for what they are, fighters that will do anything to win.

At the end of the day, talk is cheap and results matter. Let the fighting results speak for themselves.

While you are right that one has no 'proof' that they used PEDs previously, it is a very red flag if as soon as enhanced testing began they started pissing hot. Jones started to piss hot as soon as USADA showed up. He continued to flare up for residual traces of drugs, which point to past use.

Also, disqualifying the fights that the cheater cheated on would suffice to render Jones out of the equation of GOAT.

Point (3) is precisely what is at issue. Results matter, and performance enhancing drugs potentially alter results, since they definitely enhance performance. We have ample proof of massive difference in performance before and after PED use. And the science speaks for itself.

Or else people wouldn't take them.

 

[TempleoftheDog]

Trolled up, some of you fine people, were.

 

[Khaosan]

Yes they can.

 

[deadshot138]

Please stop posting and go touch grass

 

[Mike]

Lol these threads are always so funny. You guys can't care about peds because I don't!

Ok, cool. Lots of people do care though.

 

[blaseblase]

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

 

[HavokHarmon]

It’s personal preference. I think testing positive is a legitimate reason to disqualify someone from goat candidacy while I personally wouldn’t.

 

[felmmando]

I read this same thing over and over. Jones got caught with PED's he's not a goat. Silva got caught with PED's he can't be a goat.

1. You have no proof that they used PED's their entire career.

This might hold some water for obscure cheaters, but not for athletes as prominent as those you mention. It makes no sense to assume they became champions naturally and then turned to the juice.

 

[FlyingDeathKick]

Thinking any of the top guys are natty is naive imo. Maybe some are but who knows. You see guys dominate dudes that have popped for roids, out muscling them and just looking all around more athletic... Is it really possible to look super strong and athletic against PED users when you are natty??

 

[AldoStillGoat]

Counter argument from boredom:

1. You're right. The time they popped was the first and only time they ever took them. Also, peds have long lasting effects, putting people at an advantage years after taking them.

I don't need to know the extent that it helped a fighter. I just need to know that they took something against the rules to get an unfair advantage. You think usada was like, "these peds didn't help that guy bench 350, soo......we'll let it slide"? No. The extent it helped is irrelevant. They wouldn't be cheating if it didn't benefit them in some way.

2. We absolutely have proof of some who used. Ignoring those who popped just because testing can't catch them all is stupid. It is like never trying to get pussy just because you only have a 1 percent success rate. Also, you're doing the burden of proof falacy by ignoring evidence of guilt and telling all of us to get proof of everyone else's innocence.

3. Results do matter .......Test results, too.

I can disqualify whomever I want for whatever reason because goat lists are dumb and I can make my own dumb list.
Plus, everyone knows it’s Fedor.

While you are right that one has no 'proof' that they used PEDs previously, it is a very red flag if as soon as enhanced testing began they started pissing hot. Jones started to piss hot as soon as USADA showed up. He continued to flare up for residual traces of drugs, which point to past use.

Also, disqualifying the fights that the cheater cheated on would suffice to render Jones out of the equation of GOAT.

Point (3) is precisely what is at issue. Results matter, and performance enhancing drugs potentially alter results, since they definitely enhance performance. We have ample prove of massive difference in performance before and after PED use. And the science speaks for itself.

Or else people wouldn't take them.

Lol these threads are always so funny. You guys can't care about peds because I don't!

Ok, cool. Lots of people do care though.

Okay but what I’m trying to say is that given the reasons in my original post it makes more sense to not disqualify them for PED usage.

You cant prove everyone didn’t cheat. You are disqualifying those who got caught. You are disqualifying fighters based on how good they are at passing tests because you can’t prove that others were not using.

It doesn’t make enough sense to say that just because that person got caught, he’s not a GOAT.

It’s a very convoluted and obscure disqualifier that turns an already hard to quantify ranking and makes it even more complicated.

 

[Mike]

Okay but what I’m trying to say is that given the reasons in my original post it makes more sense to not disqualify them for PED usage.

You cant prove everyone didn’t cheat. You are disqualifying those who got caught. You are disqualifying fighters based on how good they are at passing tests because you can’t prove that others were not using.

It doesn’t make enough sense to say that just because that person got caught, he’s not a GOAT.

It’s a very convoluted and obscure disqualifier that turns an already hard to quantify ranking and makes it even more complicated.

Can't prove everyone isn't a serial killer with bodies buried in their basement. We go on what we can prove. If someone's been caught cheating, then yeah it's totally fair to call them a cheater. And to say they don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Not so much with the guys that have never failed a test, because they could totally be cheating every teat guys!

 

[AldoStillGoat]

Counter argument from boredom:

1. You're right. The time they popped was the first and only time they ever took them. Also, peds have long lasting effects, putting people at an advantage years after taking them.

I don't need to know the extent that it helped a fighter. I just need to know that they took something against the rules to get an unfair advantage. You think usada was like, "these peds didn't help that guy bench 350, soo......we'll let it slide"? No. The extent it helped is irrelevant. They wouldn't be cheating if it didn't benefit them in some way.

2. We absolutely have proof of some who used. Ignoring those who popped just because testing can't catch them all is stupid. It is like never trying to get pussy just because you only have a 1 percent success rate. Also, you're doing the burden of proof falacy by ignoring evidence of guilt and telling all of us to get proof of everyone else's innocence.

3. Results do matter .......Test results, too.

Here is an example in layman’s:

Imagine the most dangerous city in America:

Some people commit a crime get caught
Some other people are committing crimes and aren’t getting caught
Some people are not committing crimes

What percentage of people do you think are committing crimes whether they get caught or not?

Now let’s say that if they don’t get caught committing a crime, they will have their photos featured in the city hall.

Do you think it is fair that only the people that got caught were denied that privilege? What about the other majority of people who are committing crimes but not getting caught?

Should they get recognition when we know that there is a high propensity for people in that city to commit crimes?

Or is it more fair to put all their pictures in their city hall or remove their photos completely?

The argument that these fighters should be shunned from historical recognition is asinine.