Relationships Parents would you do this with your kids?

[Kiniun]

Naw. Can't swim.

I get it tho. However that gurgling really got to me.

 

[ChosenOne]

Looks like multi-quotes are finally back, so I can respond to both of you in the same post. I never said we can't or shouldn't judge. Here's my post on that:





...

The post you quoted is not the relevant post and it was what you said in the next two that was.

I have to ask: do you have kids? It's not meant as an insult but I'd like to understand where you're coming from. I used to be more judgmental of others' parenting until I had kids and I can tell you that they have had meltdowns over far less than losing access to a youtube channel. No one enjoys being the bad cop but there are times in parenting when it's unavoidable because young kids are sometimes irrational.

Sorry your friend had to go through that. Clearly you’re projecting some personal context onto the kid in the OP that may or not apply. I’m not judging you for it but I’m not going to argue with anyone online over something as personal as how to raise their own kids.

In those two posts you pushing a narrative that is improper for me to judge the actions of other parents on how they raise their kids.

You then admit later you also judge (kite raft) which then leaves you with the argument that 'you are not against judging others, as long as it meets the threshold you consider sufficient but if you do not consider it sufficient then it is wrong for others to do'.

 

[ChickenBrother]

The post you quoted is not the relevant post and it was what you said in the next two that was.





In those two posts you pushing a narrative that is improper for me to judge the actions of other parents on how they raise their kids.

You then admit later you also judge (kite raft) which then leaves you with the argument that 'you are not against judging others, as long as it meets the threshold you consider sufficient but if you do not consider it sufficient then it is wrong for others to do'.

It's pretty silly to hold out some vestige of hope or uncertainty that maybe there is some unnown ractor that makes this okay. We don't have to know anything about the relationship between the child and the woman to better interpret the sounds of him crying, gasping and gurgling. What possible context would undo this? You're out to lunch. The kid was crying at the start, he's probably seen this kind of bullshit abusive strong arm parenting from his mom before.

The only justification for fucking speed-running swimming ability like this is if you somehow know your kid is going to face drowning tomorrow. You can say that the parents are extremely concerned about the risk of the child falling in the pool. That's great. In that case, put a fence up, install locks, spend hours of your time doing swimming and safety lessons. Or, if thats not possible, maybe move to a house that doesn't have a pool. Nothing justifies just traumatizing a child like this because you're too busy or somehow too poor despite owning a pool, to pay for proper swim lessons. They aren't in that much of a rush. There isn't some tsunami coming tomorrow.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. You don't need to know every dynamic and facet of a child, mother, and their relationship to call a stupid, unnecessary thing stupid and unnecessary. That's a crazy standard, and basically anything could be justified using that logic.

Saying it is "impossible" to judge is leaving the door open for the 1 in 948,834,984,349 chance that this one lesson here is the thing that ends up saving this kid's life in the next few months.
The probability of that being the case is so insignificant that we might as well be having a serious debate about leprechauns and pots of gold.



The point I was making about owning a gun or a pitbull while having a small child is that it is your responsibility to make those things untouchable if they're going to co-exist, just like you would with a pool. Your will to lock those things up should be greater than the will of a 2 year old to access them. Your child's safety should come before owning any of those things if you can't make them co-exist safely.
You can't safeguard a kid from everything, but there is an extra responsibility when you have something so obviously dangerous as those 3 things.



You have a choice on what house you move to. Even if we say you HAD to buy that home, then there are a range of barriers and precautions you can take to make sure the kid never has access to the pool without you there.
There's simply no excuse for a 2 year old getting to a pool. No disrespect meant to a person that has lost their kid that way, but it's beyond careless. Of course you can't watch your kid 24/7, but there are crucial times where you should and can.....like when there's a pool around.

If your 2 year old can climb over a gate, then the gate wasn't high enough. How was the kid able to open the door and get access to the pool?
I wouldn't leave a 2 year old in a bathtub by themselves, let alone a pool. That phone call can wait, as can dinner. If my kid can't swim, he ain't getting in the pool without proper gear.
But again, that's just my opinion on it, and we're allowed to have our own opinions.

I'm not looking at this as child abuse, I just see it as unintentional bad parenting mixed in with laziness. (And none of this is directed AT you--I'm just speaking in general on what I think about this)

This thread has reminded me why I stay out of the WR. Let's cut through the bullshit. Most (including me) agree we wouldn't do this with our own kids, which is the premise of this thread. What is being debated here is a higher standard: should a parent be allowed to do this to their own kid, under any circumstances.

Let's apply a simple test. You have a new neighbor who just moved into the house next door and they have a pool in their backyard. You know nothing about them but your yard adjoins theirs and one day you observe the OP scene happening exactly as shown. Do you call CPS and report a case of suspected child abuse? My answer is no and unless your answer is yes, I have no further objection your honor.

 

[ChosenOne]

This thread has reminded me why I stay out of the WR. Let's cut through the bullshit. Most (including me) agree we wouldn't do this with our own kids, which is the premise of this thread. What is being debated here is a higher standard: should a parent be allowed to do this to their own kid, under any circumstances.

Let's apply a simple test. You have a new neighbor who just moved into the house next door and they have a pool in their backyard. You know nothing about them but your yard adjoins theirs and one day you observe the OP scene happening exactly as shown. Do you call CPS and report a case of suspected child abuse? My answer is no and unless your answer is yes, I have no further objection your honor.

I don't see why you adding a scenario we never discussed is a simple test for this discussion?

In the discussion with me, i offered my view that i think is not a good way to do it, as someone who volunteered in a community 'kids swim' program when my kids were infants. I said there were better ways to do it.,

For whatever reason that made you want to engage with me as if i was being judgemental and it was wrong to judge other parents and the choices they make.

That was OUR discussion. It was not over 'calling police or CPS to report child abuse' which i would not do. I would not do that with the kite rafting either, if it is legal in the area the kids and parents choose to do it.

But i will judge it as stupid and risky if i see that way for the kite rafting and i will judge us as unnecessarily and potentially traumatizing to the kid re swimming. You can agree or disagree with me on that and i would have no issue as you have a right to your opinion on it too, but when you try and tell me i am wrong to judge or should not judge that crosses in to a line where you become wrong and we are no longer in the realm of opinion, and i will call you on it.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

This thread has reminded me why I stay out of the WR. Let's cut through the bullshit. Most (including me) agree we wouldn't do this with our own kids, which is the premise of this thread. What is being debated here is a higher standard: should a parent be allowed to do this to their own kid, under any circumstances.

Let's apply a simple test. You have a new neighbor who just moved into the house next door and they have a pool in their backyard. You know nothing about them but your yard adjoins theirs and one day you observe the OP scene happening exactly as shown. Do you call CPS and report a case of suspected child abuse? My answer is no and unless your answer is yes, I have no further objection your honor.

The conversation has been respectful despite the disagreement, so not sure how this is looking like the War Room.
What's the bullshit here ?

The debate wasn't "should a parent be allowed to do X?" You're allowed to parent your kid in the way you see fit so long as you're not abusing them.

The debate was about whether or not this was a good/necessary method of teaching a child as opposed to a normal swimming class.
And then from my end, this was about the responsibility that a parent has when they have a small child and a pool.
In my view, you're making excuses for bad/lazy parenting. Again, I don't mean that as a personal attack. But if someone is leaving their 2 year old in a pool just to go check on the meat loaf, I'm questioning their thought process.

You were talking about projection earlier, but I haven't said anything about child abuse, and that's really not the focal point here for anyone from what I can see. Would I call CPS? No, because I can see what their intent is. Having good intent doesn't erase my belief that it's a dumb way to teach an unnecessary lesson that would have a questionable success rate.

I just completely disagree on this idea of yours that you can't look at something weird and call it weird unless you break it down on a molecular level first.
You can be a well meaning parent and do some dumb shit sometimes. Most people probably have at some point.
Keep in mind, this is about THIS particular incident. I think there are other situations where you should know a child, parent, and their relationship better to understand what's going on. But in THIS case? I think it's pretty cut and dry.

 

[Bob Gray]

In fairness most get over the trauma, via that method and do swim, but a good percent do not

What percentage do not and how did you find it out?

I'm not trying to argue, I'd honestly want to know. But I feel like many people are arguing that they think kids will develop trauma from this based on assumption rather than anything measurable.

This is not an incident of them falling into the water on their own, which id argue is far more likely to be trauma inducing. Their parents are literally right there and they're never further than arms reach away.

Again, if it's just gut feeling that you have, fair enough. But if there are actual stats behind your posituon, I would like to know what they are.

 

[Bob Gray]

"Survive"? Part of my issue with this is that I can't wrap my mind around the idea of a 2 year old being in a position where they'd be in a pool by themselves and drown.

This literaly happened to me. Its why I'm deaf. I was exactly two years old. It happens.

 

[Fedorgasm]

Kids will also instinctively stop, drop, and roll if you light them on fire.

Most of 'em did anyway.


RIP little Kayla

 

[SmilinDesperado]

This literaly happened to me. Its why I'm deaf. I was exactly two years old. It happens.

Yeah, my point is that it shouldn't happen. This isn't like a kid getting a hold of a common household item like bleach or a pair of scissors.
For a pool, "it happens" because of carelessness. It's about on the same level of carelessness as a kid getting access to a gun or leaving a kid in a car during the summer, in my opinion.

 

[Bob Gray]

Yeah, my point is that it shouldn't happen. This isn't like a kid getting a hold of a common household item like bleach or a pair of scissors.
For a pool, "it happens" because of carelessness. It's about on the same level of carelessness as a kid getting access to a gun or leaving a kid in a car during the summer, in my opinion.

I mean, lots of stuff "shouldnt happen". It doesnt mean we shouldnt prepare for it, either.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I mean, lots of stuff "shouldnt happen". It doesnt mean we shouldnt prepare for it, either.

Yes, which is why I am making the distinction between a 2 year old getting a hold of a common household item vs. specific situations of having access to a pool, a gun, or being around an animal that isn't suitable for a child.
It's understandable that we can't safeguard children from EVERYTHING, but there are specific things where we can.

Proper preparation to me would be fortifying the dangerous item, not dunking my kid in the water and relying on a 2 year old to stay cool under pressure and save his own life because of my negligence.

 

[ChosenOne]

What percentage do not and how did you find it out?

I'm not trying to argue, I'd honestly want to know. But I feel like many people are arguing that they think kids will develop trauma from this based on assumption rather than anything measurable.

This is not an incident of them falling into the water on their own, which id argue is far more likely to be trauma inducing. Their parents are literally right there and they're never further than arms reach away.

Again, if it's just gut feeling that you have, fair enough. But if there are actual stats behind your posituon, I would like to know what they are.

It is part assumption and part observational conclusion.

Few humans can tell you the exact moment their phobia was triggered and can point at the exact trauma that started them on that path.

I am an extreme risk taker but have one phobia, which is a form of claustrophobia, and i could not say for certain what triggered it but i do believe i know what did. I have said prior in this forum that i can remember when both my older brother and father thought it would be funny to grab the giant floor pillows we had, when i was lying on the floor, and they both jumped on me, pinned me, thought it was funny as i fought back yelling at them to get off. They did not. And i recall going to a point of a panic and to get them to move i started spitting at them. That is something you would never do with my dad but i think then, and only then they realized i was in distress and not joking around.

It took me years to notice a pattern of me suffering anxiety and going into panic when my movements became confined and i could not control my space. I would pass out in church when put in the middle of full rows but be fine on the end with no one on that side of me. I was not triggered by small spaces but rather an inability to control my space.

I say all that so you can understand that you will not be able to pinpoint the trauma that results in phobia but it is generally understood that MANY phobias are triggered by a past trauma.

Bad experiences. Many phobias start because of a bad experience or panic attack related to a specific object or situation. Sometimes even seeing or hearing about a bad experience can be enough to trigger a phobia

So while you might argue that the clear trauma that kid, in the OP video is not suffering a deep trauma (as his parent is there) the better question is 'why cause any such trauma when it is not even remotely needed to achieve that goal?

i maintain there are only two reasons to do it that way.

Laziness : A belief it is faster and not wanting to invest the hour or so it takes to achieve the same goal the other way.

Flex : consciously or subconsciously i think some parents see this as a flex. A 'i did not coddle my kid, i tossed him in and let him sink or swim and look at him now'.

If anyone can think of a third, i would be curious.

 

[ChosenOne]

I mean, lots of stuff "shouldnt happen". It doesnt mean we shouldnt prepare for it, either.

This is where things always go sideways.

Yes a lot of people defend this with '...lots of stuff "... happen". 'We should prepare kids for it' type arguments but that DOES NOT mean this method is the only or best, or even a good method to do so.

Simply because it does get a good result sometimes, maybe even most times, does not mean it should be done, when there is an option that achieves the same thing without the trauma and what can come from trauma.

 

[Tito Tapped]

Wait, we're seriously doomsday prepping kids in case they fall into a pool by waiting until they are crying and upset and throwing them in?

I'd like to prep this mother for menopause by punching her in the ovaries.

 

[Crazy Source]

Wait, we're seriously doomsday prepping kids in case they fall into a pool by waiting until they are crying and upset and throwing them in?

I'd like to prep this mother for menopause by punching her in the ovaries.

Like others have pointed out, this whole thing was a "flex" by the mother. She probably lets the kid sit in shitty diapers for hours to "learn".

 

[whocares]

Seems more fair to me that we write into law that you're allowed to strike anyone who gets distracted on their phone in public. Because that's how and why many kids are drowning in backyard pools these days. Like that stupid cunt mom in Utah who let her kid ride his "toy" tractor into the river because she was too busy posting selfies to notice. No point chucking your kid in the water if you're not there to pull him out.

And yes this is a retarded practice no matter how you slice it. You could use the same logic here and apply it to many dozens of completely harmful, trauma inducing tactics for children because "it will prob happen to you someday", when there are many more safe, effective methods to produce the same end result without the trauma.

Seems having common sense these days qualifies you as 3/4 of a genius.

 

[IDGETKTFO]

No. Kids will remember traumatic stuff like that and will be afraid of water their entire life. My father was afraid of water and never learned to swim because he fell into a pond when he was that kids age and almost drowned.

 

[deviake]

Seems unnecessarily traumatizing to me and looking through the thread it seems like others agree. One step at a time. It doesn't look like they're easing the kid into it, which, to me, seems like the common sense approach. Build their confidence.

That's a large backyard and I guarantee that that inground pool costs a bagillion dollars; they've the resources for proper swim lessons.

 

[Bob Gray]

It is part assumption and part observational conclusion.

Few humans can tell you the exact moment their phobia was triggered and can point at the exact trauma that started them on that path.

I am an extreme risk taker but have one phobia, which is a form of claustrophobia, and i could not say for certain what triggered it but i do believe i know what did. I have said prior in this forum that i can remember when both my older brother and father thought it would be funny to grab the giant floor pillows we had, when i was lying on the floor, and they both jumped on me, pinned me, thought it was funny as i fought back yelling at them to get off. They did not. And i recall going to a point of a panic and to get them to move i started spitting at them. That is something you would never do with my dad but i think then, and only then they realized i was in distress and not joking around.

It took me years to notice a pattern of me suffering anxiety and going into panic when my movements became confined and i could not control my space. I would pass out in church when put in the middle of full rows but be fine on the end with no one on that side of me. I was not triggered by small spaces but rather an inability to control my space.

I say all that so you can understand that you will not be able to pinpoint the trauma that results in phobia but it is generally understood that MANY phobias are triggered by a past trauma.

I get your point. Im just not sold that teaching children this way will have the same result as your negative experience. Somebody else brought it up, but we dont even know why the kid was crying. Kids that age will cry over literally anything. Often its not even a sign of distress of discomfort so much as just the most random inane shit youve ever thought of like "I dont like being on this side of the pool". That can literally be the reason the kid is having a crying fit, and sometimes you need to ignore their tantrums.

Remember, even teaching kids at all how to swim has the potential to cause this sort of trauma you're talking about. Without some sort of barometer as to how likely this is to cause the effect you're talking about, its mostly just a feeling more than an informed decision. Its not unique to your position, I think people who disagree with you are doing the same thing.

Also, we have no idea how many lessons the kid has already had. He already floats on his own, so this isnt his first rodeo. I doubt the tactic involves just throwing kids into the pool before they have any experience or teaching.

So while you might argue that the clear trauma that kid, in the OP video is not suffering a deep trauma (as his parent is there) the better question is 'why cause any such trauma when it is not even remotely needed to achieve that goal?

i maintain there are only two reasons to do it that way.

Laziness : A belief it is faster and not wanting to invest the hour or so it takes to achieve the same goal the other way.

Flex : consciously or subconsciously i think some parents see this as a flex. A 'i did not coddle my kid, i tossed him in and let him sink or swim and look at him now'.

If anyone can think of a third, i would be curious.

I think theres an obvious reason you're overlooking. The parents want to protect their children and think this is the most effective way to do it. I can understand you're disagreeing with them, but I dont think its fair to label their decision as some sort of selfish or nefarious tactic to achieve their own ends. They can be putting their child first.

 

[tobiaswins]

That’s some pretty bad parenting imo. Sure teach kids to swim but baby steps. This is more likely to make a child afraid of water. The kid is scared to death and gasping for breath. And then she posted the video..why?