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one fc > ufc
ONE: Northcutt KOd in 29 Seconds
- Thread starter AGEZ909
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Yeah, what was this about Sage Northcutt being a World Champion kickboxer? Was that factual?
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It was point Karate, not real Kickboxing. He didn't face any decent Kickboxers.
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Okay, thank you. I was wondering why One Championship was advertising that so much about Sage Northcutt.
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Moreover, some of these "Karate" tournaments, are a gathering of competitors who coast on their natural athletics.
Precisely the case with Sage.
When they face seasoned competitors who have been through the fire of continual contact like boxers, they wilt under the pressure. Precisely the case with Sage.
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Not a bad size up of Sage. The problems w Sage are common for karate transitioning to MMA.
Disagree with your diagnosis on the karate end, however. Karate doesn't burn you out... it makes you stronger. It's conventional MMA training which burns competitors out. Just list to former champions Conor McGregor or Rose Namajunas, any number of them.
And all this constant talk about how karate has to be adapted to MMA. This bunk has been spun for ever. What you have is karate point fighter's coming into MMA who are athletically scoring points, then have to face contact. The karate curriculum doesn't train one to score points. It trains you to prevail. Sage trained to score points.
The additional factor is that Sage specifically changed to TAM, which he felt improved his game. So there's obviously a learning issue either w Sage or TAM's current state of affairs. It's years Sage's been in MMA... same issues abound.
ADD: And as the matchmaking got tough @ the top, Stephen Thompson's been under siege. He's not getting better @ under all this evolution which purportedly takes place in MMA.
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Here are some gifs for your viewing pleasure (or schadenfreude).
Wow, that's some tape on the fatal exchange.
Here's my take. We see the typical response of MMA competitors to the aggressive opponent moving in. A veteran kickboxer against amateur (kickboxing wise). And this is after Super Sage's super training @ super TAM.
Top GIF:
Backed up against the ropes by Cosmo with no response. Then slide towards corner, an even worse position kickoxing wise. Then pauses in his skittering footwork to toss a weak jab (not sure where). Cosmo closes and ranges that right hook right over that lazy jab - KAPOW!
Middle GIF:
Sage looks for the jab and starts out ok, but he's not really on balance... overly weighted on front foot. Comes from reacting to Cosmo's forward pressure. Jab lacks strong trajectory & power,,, perfect set up for strong counter by Cosmo who expertly shifts & rotates into the rear hook. Very poor to non-existent ring sense on Sage's part. Typical MMA sparring response by Sage... absent strong boxing fundamentals.
Bottom GIF:
Captures the gaping difference in body mechanics between the two competitors. Sage, left arm looks kinda disconnected from the body. Sage's stance nearly squared up. Chin hangin' out there. Cosmo's on the beat with his technique
Formula for effective MMA technique eludes Sage again. Dramatic mismatch, we have to admit.
MMA Moral: Don't evaluate a competitor's potential on the glitz & glamor of paper Karate certificates & fancy metal trophies. Matt Brown said it best re Wonderboy. Anyone can have a great record fighting cans.
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Fair enough point re: Karate making you stronger in the long run. You are definitely correct that MMA training is much harder mentally and physically. I just think training any high-level athletic on a competitive level for 10+ years can easily lead to burnout, especially for kids.
Karate needs to be adapted to a degree for MMA, you can’t come in with nothing but Karate skills and expect to perform well in a mixed rules fight. From how your stance opens you up to low kicks and takedowns to what strikes are worth attempting there seems to be a lot to account for. Point fighting is part of that complexity, but just the style approach itself needs to be re-thought.
It’s almost impossible to know what is up with Sage’s training; from the stories from Firas Zahabi his dad is a control freak that wants to coach/train him still. TAM is a bunch of short wrestle-boxers that fight 155 and under - how is that a good camp for a WW karate-based fighter that can’t grapple and needs to adapt his striking style and footwork? And per Faber they didn’t think he should take this fight and yet he still took it - so either TAM is incompetent or Sage is having his career run by his Dad who has no clue what he’s doing...not a good look either way.
What’s with the Wonderboy hate? I’m not even a fan but he did fight for the title twice and almost won, plus was able to beat Hendricks, Rory, Till, Masvidal (all elite). He looked like he got better every fight from early in his career until he ran into peak Woodley, which was a tough and tricky matchup for both guys.
WB is on the decline because his game is speed-based and he’s starting to lose some (injuries + age). He is the best example of adapting Karate for MMA since he didn’t have other elite skills like Machida (Sumo, Judo, BJJ) to compliment his game and build other layers to it.
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Yes, there is truth to that and some of that truth is linked to the intensity of the training. Frequently with competition karate in both kumite & kata some go in for pretty extreme physical training. And that can morph into stress that's counterproductive to destructive. I want to counter that, with the overall theme that karate traditional training is highly challenging yet one dials up to the difficulty. Traditionally, we are not pushing for definite results, but growth. The growth brings the results.
The physical resutls come faster as we get in shape. The mastering of the correct working of the body mechanics takes appreciably longer. The mental development is perhaps the crux of the training and many never broach this properly. There is also the metaphysical spiritual side which is the most difficult to get a handle on.
Because of the extensive nature of your reply, I'll break my replies into multiple posts. Overall, nice read.
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This dilemma here is, and your handle reads "MMAnalyst," is that MMA participants look at karate through an MMA lens. Take your characterization of 'karate skills.' You statement about; "...how your stance opens you up to low kicks and takedowns...." One word; Silly.
This comes from MMA viewing MMA competitors who bring some karate practices to MMA. What these MMA competitors with a karate base or karate experience don't usually bring is the competent use of the karate curriculum. The karate curriculum has an answer for everything. If one studies it in a comprehensive way. This is a hyper- involved subject for a forum thread, so I will try to illustrate.
Karate highlights 2019
165 views
Before a Fight
Published on Mar 26, 2019
Please watch: "KARATE KUMITE & KATA HIGHLIGHTS-WKF"
Contained in the highlight, there is a sample of a low attack to the stance getting countered; and one where the low attack to the stance works. Interestingly enough, Mr. Karate Champion Sage Northcutt didn't effect either in his recent bout. HMMMM.
All parts of the karate curriculum teach not only the stance(s) but movment between stances. So the karate curriculum in its entirely teaches what? Transitions between & among stances. IOW, don't stand there and allow someone low kick the bah-juzus out of ya. Furthermore, there is this strange thing in karate called technique. So when someone tries to say low kick you, you can do a strange thing like shift or step your stance & punch them in the face for instance - see the video... .works quite well when done proficiently. Together, stance, moment & technique make up what... tactics. These are presented in various drills, self defense sets, and traditionally in the 1-step sparring routines.
So if anything, MMA has to catch up to the potential of traditional karate's level of fighting. The fact that Wonderboy Thompson who has great athletics like Sage, stands still in a crap side high horse stance and throws up some weak, inaccurate side kick then makes an equally poor reset + indecisively flings out a weak arm only check hook, against the equally athletic Anthony Pettis, that does not define what traditional karate kumite can execute @ all.
A strong stance, for karate starters, is resistant to difficult to kick out. A crap stance can be cut through with low effort. Now cycle back to the foregoing above discussion.
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Well, we agree there's trouble, confirmed by Sage looking amateurish. I'm a downer on the conventional MMA training regimen across the board. On TAM, there is potential there, I get the felling a lot of the potential is wasted 'cause it's the Uriah club, not a professionally run MMA camp. I see some much better coaching efforts here among the Striking Forum than to pull a name out of the air,,,, Serra-Longo.
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Stephen Thompson's success, and it was a good record, was supported by UFC match making. Let's be honest. Stephen had a ton of potential, but wandered off from his karate roots to a very simple kickboxing regimen, the latter leveraged off his prime athletic physique. He got lazy in his devotion to training.
On the title bouts, Woodley dominated both fights, MMA scoring aside. Woodely proved he could have finished Wonderboy, the reverse was never a probable scenario. Stephen had the opportunity to make good in the rematch... then blamed it all on the scorecards. I posted somewhere here recently a Female French Kumite competitor who numerous times dropped or rocked her larger, bigger, overly aggressive opponent in the space of two minutes; the demonstration of how to handle physical aggression in a heatedly contested championship bout. And that was a controlled contact venue. Stephen vs. Tyron... never a glimmer of same. Martially, Stephen lost both those title matches. Then we had the Till debacle, where Till marched Stephen around for 5 rounds, with the knockdown. And so on.
Stephen & his Dad were so enamoured with fighting competition & kickboxing stuff, they left karate @ home.
Although it's true the the scoring in most karate kumite is heavily based on speed, physical speed does not define karate action. There's plenty of fast, athletic, highly agile karate competitors who lose to the mentally disciplined opponent who is more dynamic in effect. And the latter ties into sound body mechanics for starters, where Stephen has really deteriorated.
The time for Stephen Thompson to reaccess his training regimen & coaching was after the Matt Brown loss.
What Sage does in this context, I see no certain path for what he's doing or where he's going.
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I'm not big on kids in karate. I'd say ten years old and up, otherwise they are just too young to cognitively understand what they are supposed to be doing. Commercialism & over-achieving parents, and in Japan, cultural pride, drive the children thing in karate.
Again, the traditional karate regimen is not for competitive result but personal growth. Strengthening first, achieving second.
To revist, the whole BJJ phenomena brought the issue of grappler vs. striker to the fore. And that was the legitimate dimension of the Gracie revolution in martial arts. What onlookers or MMA stylists in general forget is that karate is the art of self defense... not side horse slip into reverse punch speed tag. Comprehensive self defense from all nature of threats (I didn't say technically all ways) is taught by the traditional karate curriculum. The problem is one has to understand & train the curriculum comprehensively... and fill in a lot of blanks. When one gets this, then one will see as Arya Stark came to see, that the BJJ grappler will not automatically close the distance on a traditional karate stylist and most likely not. Here's a JKA Championship highlight,,, yeah try to move in and Muay Thai clinch with these guys or gals and see what happens.
あまりに美しく、強烈で、感動的な空手大会の映像 2018Karate Tournament JKA
550,436 views
kuro-obi world
Published on Jun 4, 2018
I'm not saying karate is THE style for MMA. Karate takes a special commitment in order to tap it's true potential. I don't see the majority of MMA competitors with all those commercial pressures to make a living... being able to tackle that. A select few perhaps. I do think MMA competitors would be wise to seek out a number of training camps beyond the generally accepted big names currently popularized.
Back to the thread. Should Sage want to brand him self a karate stylist, the above video means he really has his work cut out for him. If TAM was better managed & run, I'd venture to say that would help Sage a lot.
Epilogue: No simple answers in karate proper.
I find this funny because One have brainwashed Sage to tell vsd things about how UFC treat fighters and then he got brutally Ko d by an unknown brazilian who is 37 years old
Would be like to send Anthony Joshua to China for more money and then losing against an unknown hw asian
Don't forget that Chatri is desperate to make One huge and he needs American fighters to make his org legit
Would be like to send Anthony Joshua to China for more money and then losing against an unknown hw asian
Don't forget that Chatri is desperate to make One huge and he needs American fighters to make his org legit
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I appreciate you providing such a long and detailed response throughout this thread. You clearly know a shit-ton about Karate so can offer a lot of more nuance in discussing that martial art then myself. That being said I want to offer some counter-points to expand the conversation - I hope you don't take this as me telling you that you are wrong, I'm just offering my own perspective/analysis (and maybe you will disagree but I'd like continue the conversation).
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This dilemma here is, and your handle reads "MMAnalyst," is that MMA participants look at karate through an MMA lens. Take your characterization of 'karate skills.' You statement about; "...how your stance opens you up to low kicks and takedowns...." One word; Silly.
This comes from MMA viewing MMA competitors who bring some karate practices to MMA. What these MMA competitors with a karate base or karate experience don't usually bring is the competent use of the karate curriculum. The karate curriculum has an answer for everything. If one studies it in a comprehensive way. This is a hyper- involved subject for a forum thread, so I will try to illustrate.
Karate highlights 2019
165 views
Before a Fight
Published on Mar 26, 2019
Please watch: "KARATE KUMITE & KATA HIGHLIGHTS-WKF"
Contained in the highlight, there is a sample of a low attack to the stance getting countered; and one where the low attack to the stance works. Interestingly enough, Mr. Karate Champion Sage Northcutt didn't effect either in his recent bout. HMMMM.
All parts of the karate curriculum teach not only the stance(s) but movment between stances. So the karate curriculum in its entirely teaches what? Transitions between & among stances. IOW, don't stand there and allow someone low kick the bah-juzus out of ya. Furthermore, there is this strange thing in karate called technique. So when someone tries to say low kick you, you can do a strange thing like shift or step your stance & punch them in the face for instance - see the video... .works quite well when done proficiently. Together, stance, moment & technique make up what... tactics. These are presented in various drills, self defense sets, and traditionally in the 1-step sparring routines.
So if anything, MMA has to catch up to the potential of traditional karate's level of fighting. The fact that Wonderboy Thompson who has great athletics like Sage, stands still in a crap side high horse stance and throws up some weak, inaccurate side kick then makes an equally poor reset + indecisively flings out a weak arm only check hook, against the equally athletic Anthony Pettis, that does not define what traditional karate kumite can execute @ all.
A strong stance, for karate starters, is resistant to difficult to kick out. A crap stance can be cut through with low effort. Now cycle back to the foregoing above discussion.
I'm mainly interested on how martial arts work in an MMA context. Karate teaches so many techniques for so many situations, but it doesn't seem to teach how to apply those techniques in a never-ending flowing model (i.e. endlessly chaining techniques together in a free-flowing format). Basically you have two guys that are focused on blitz-fighting because the second a strike lands the action is halted; so you don't need to worry about what happens AFTER the initial strike. Because of this I see dudes with their hands at their waist, flinging themselves recklessly into attacks that would NEVER finish a fight with the expectation that once they have landed clean the action will be halted and they can reset. These attacks are always as high-intensity as possible (why save energy when there are so many breaks and you only get rewarded for landing first?), frequently reckless (little pivoting or head movement, over-reliance on hand-parries), make them off-balance (running forward at times while throwing combos with both hands), and leave their legs and backs exposed to takedowns. They don't have to worry about double-legs, trips, judo-throws, elbows, clinch knees, and other techniques so they can fight with their hands low and have no worry about takedowns, which allows them to use techniques that are suicide in MMA fights.
I always thought Karate was a great martial art to adapt for MMA because being able to hit and not get hit is the most pure essence of fighting (doing damage and not taking any). What made it tricky was that by its very nature of practical implementation its participants are going to build skillsets based around techniques and movements that in MMA can leave you exposed if you don't have complimentary skillsets to blend with. I can't rely that just hitting my opponent first will always be enough to win a fight, most of the time they will still be there and they will be trying to attack me immediately after they are hit, there will be no pause/reset and they won't be limited on the techniques they can use. Are Karate stylists really training transitional-attacks with integrated grappling/throws/clinch-work? It's pretty presumptive to assume that just with great footwork and initial strike capabilities that they can completely negate grappling attacks or be prepared to check thai-style low-kicks or be ready to deal with constant transitional attacks.
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Would like to hear you expound your thoughts on why conventional MMA training is poor.
TAM I see as a mid-tier camp that specializes in one style of fighter (lower-weight class wrestle-boxers with lots of grappling experience), they've never had a high-level coach stay on for long and have cycled through a few notables (Bang, Martin Kampmann). Even home-grown coaches like Justin Bucholz had enough of Faber and finally have bounced (though are still helping a few TAM fighters). Probably will only get so far in a camp like that, they will make sure you are tough and well-conditioned but their ability to adapt and progress fighters that don't fit their fighter-mold is highly questionable (while if you look at when they had Bang as the head-coach every single big name fighter made immediate and noticeable improvements in their striking).
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You could honestly say that every successful UFC fighter (except for the grinders like Jon Fitch) was supported by UFC match-making. It's just how it goes when you have a look/style they want to get behind, they aren't going to give you the toughest possible match-ups immediately if they want to make as much money as possible off your career.
I wouldn't say that Wonderboy got lazy, I would argue that he reached the limit of his athleticism and depth of adapting his skillset. It's not like at 30+ years old he is going to add offensive wrestling, submission grappling, high-level pocket-boxing, etc. to his game, when he came to the UFC he was already at his athletic peak and there is a limit to how much you can change your style/learn new skillsets.
I was actually at the 2nd WB fight (meant to see Khabib vs. Ferguson....we all know how that came through lol) and I don't disagree with anything you say. Woodley clearly won both fights, clearly did the most damage, and showed he had the approach to beat WB by trying to save energy and bait WB to over-commit to leading against the fence.
The Till fight was a travesty from an entertainment stand-point but I felt it was clear WB won; he made Till chase him and was able to constantly angle off and land counters. Till gave WB the fight he wanted until the 5th round when he actually committed to pressuring with his jab.
It seems crazy that you think WB didn't change his training after the Matt Brown loss - he came back after that with much better understanding of using his footwork in an MMA context. Before that he was over-reliant on his ability to keep guys at bay with feints or to be able to reset after landing, but Brown would just walk through the feints or initial strikes and keep on attacking him into the clinch. He looked unprepared for the clinch, unprepared for the transitions, and unprepared for the grappling.
Wonderboy just got KO'd for the first time in his entire career against Pettis, so it's not like he's been getting pasted (though to be fair I don't see how he survived those punches against Woodley, so his style has left him open to boxing counters frequently throughout his career).
Of course there are more factors than speed at play but I think we can both agree that speed is the most important factor in a sport based around landing first. If two guys are equally disciplined/skilled the faster guy will pretty much always win in striking, that's a pretty big physical edge to have to apply technique with.
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I'm not big on kids in karate. I'd say ten years old and up, otherwise they are just too young to cognitively understand what they are supposed to be doing. Commercialism & over-achieving parents, and in Japan, cultural pride, drive the children thing in karate.
Again, the traditional karate regimen is not for competitive result but personal growth. Strengthening first, achieving second.
To revist, the whole BJJ phenomena brought the issue of grappler vs. striker to the fore. And that was the legitimate dimension of the Gracie revolution in martial arts. What onlookers or MMA stylists in general forget is that karate is the art of self defense... not side horse slip into reverse punch speed tag. Comprehensive self defense from all nature of threats (I didn't say technically all ways) is taught by the traditional karate curriculum. The problem is one has to understand & train the curriculum comprehensively... and fill in a lot of blanks. When one gets this, then one will see as Arya Stark came to see, that the BJJ grappler will not automatically close the distance on a traditional karate stylist and most likely not. Here's a JKA Championship highlight,,, yeah try to move in and Muay Thai clinch with these guys or gals and see what happens.
あまりに美しく、強烈で、感動的な空手大会の映像 2018Karate Tournament JKA
550,436 views
kuro-obi world
Published on Jun 4, 2018
I'm not saying karate is THE style for MMA. Karate takes a special commitment in order to tap it's true potential. I don't see the majority of MMA competitors with all those commercial pressures to make a living... being able to tackle that. A select few perhaps. I do think MMA competitors would be wise to seek out a number of training camps beyond the generally accepted big names currently popularized.
Back to the thread. Should Sage want to brand him self a karate stylist, the above video means he really has his work cut out for him. If TAM was better managed & run, I'd venture to say that would help Sage a lot.
Epilogue: No simple answers in karate proper.
I don't mean to offend but I watch that video and I don't see striking that would work in an MMA context (and why should it? they aren't training for MMA or trying to apply technique to MMA anyways). These guys are recklessly blitzing to strike first knowing that they won't get grappled and the second they land the action will be paused. They are off-balance when blitzing and their punching technique is often a lot of flailing arm-parries with no hooks/uppercuts/jabs (and even the lunging straights tend to be off-balance).
Karate has tons of great nuances that can be utilized for MMA. The issue with guys that have really deep skills in one field of MMA (whether striking art like Karate or Muy Thai or grappling art like BJJ or Judo) is that they become over-reliant on it and don't round out their stylistic short-comings. As you go up against the more elite those guys tend to be well-rounded PLUS have really deep skills in particular fields, so can expose those short-comings more easily.
There isn't one style that is perfect for MMA, it's all nuanced adaptation based on opponent and understanding your own skills/capabilities.
