Except Wonderboy wasn't fighting cans, he was fighting former champions and title contenders in Hendricks/Rory/Masvidal/Till. Again, historical revisionism at it's finest to help you make your point.
Yep, those were some decent MMA competitors.
ROFLMAO didn't realize I was lecturing you, especially when I went out of my way to literally state:
"I hope you don't take this as me telling you that you are wrong, I'm just offering my own perspective/analysis"
I guess giving an opinion that differs from yours is lecturing you though, so I better just agree with everything you state as sacrosanct
I meant that in a collegiate way. Again, the limitations of the forum enviroment.
If this training method is so "super-elite" and superior to other martial arts then why isn't it being utilized as a basis for more high-level MMA fighters?
Simple. And this has been discussed and answered on MMA forums before. Particularly according to your last post which I have affirmed.
It's an aptitude & dedication factors issue. In summary. Both Sage and Thompson are more sporty guys who want to go out there and mix it up with a lot of physical action & technique.
Beyond that, your question is rhetorical.
Is the talent pool shallow?
Well, we have to define talent. But by-in-large, yes. A karate black-belt, takes 3, 5, 7 years before your'e ready for heavy competition like the UFC. Most karate practitioners aren't that serious. So the pool of talented karate black-belts is much smaller too.
The UFC doesn't invest in it's competitors in any meaningful way training way. They're virtually on their own. And this is one of the lessons of karate training. To realize how serious competent training is.
On the more MMA side, I think BJJ as a style recognizes this also. Takes a long time to become a bona fide black-belt in BJJ. Complicated.
Do the competitors not like to cross-train in other martial arts that involve grappling?
Do you mean karate or MMA? TAM has a good wrestling / BJJ program on paper. Striking, they have some boxing & Muay Thai. Sage blew up.
Honest questions - if you sincerely believe what you are saying you should have a good explanation for this since the cause and effect doesn't add up. Would seem pretty evident if Karate was the best base skill for MMA then we'd see far more high-level MMA fighters with that background/style....and yet we haven't for 20+ years....
Again, rhetorical. Not many people including karate players want to take on the rigors of MMA, both on the full contact end & on the commercial end. Dana White isn't going to put any words in my mouth. And Dana White has an excellent formula for promoting MMA... he's seminal in creating the success of the business. Not martial arts though.
Bro you honestly need to read what you are writing - it literally sums up to "if you only trained karate like I have you would see that I'm right." That's all well and good but it isn't any way to formulate an argument - it's literally like telling someone they haven't trained in the art so they don't know how effective it is. I could say the exact thing about BJJ (or any other martial art) and it would hold the same exact weight, except in my case I could post countless examples of high-level BJJ (or Muy Thai or Boxing or Wrestlers) that have transitioned that martial art effectively to high-level MMA. And yet you can't do the same with Karate. You might even be right, but that's not any way to make an argument for it.
Actually, if you wade through what I wrote, I didn't say that. I'm challenging MMA to think harder and better about karate. Any BTW, when you step into that Octagon, to win you have better be right. Otherwise the legacy of Sage is waiting for you. He's not typing analyst pieces.
And BTW, and poster just told me the same objection in that I hadn't trained boxing or Muay Thai. I train to beat them.
Again, all I did was present some material over the internet for the open minded like yourself to consider. I've been challenged by wrestlers, kickboxers, boxers, karatekas in my and other styles. One school where I defeated the head instructor when he challenged me, simply didn't invite me back. Sore losers abound no matter what the style
Wonderboy was terrible karate-wise in fights where he got a majority draw and a split-decision lost against a top-5 all-time WW that has insanely dangerous wrestling? You really see the MMA world through rose-colored lenses, it's not going to be possible to convince someone that believes they are better than the highest-level MMA fighters we have ever seen. You have thousands of hours of training and study - could you take Wonderboy in an MMA fight? Could you even make it competitive? If you can't take him or wouldn't even make it close, then what good is all that training in the context of MMA?
Here's the weakness of your position, and it's not because you don't have facts. But it's a very specious argument which avoids the actual principles of what makes martial arts works... then how well can one do them.
The martial question for us, you and me, is not the ranking, and quoting of statistics, it's WHY WONDERBOY LOST. One global question: WHY?
This is the difference between being an observer and a practitioner doing the art first hand. All karate currcilums of today have kumite as a component. All belt rank tests require sparring. Moreover, there are all kinds of tournament a karateka can attend. So to win, you have to do the RIGHT thing. It's not an abstraction, some abstraction in practice.
Except we almost never see high-level Karate fighters in MMA that have developed solid-grappling for Mixed Rules combat, you can literally count them on one-hand. We do however see tons of high-level BJJ/Wrestlers that have learned how to strike and tons of high-level Boxer/Muy Thai guys that have learned how to grapple and defend takedowns.
We are getting to the limits again. I choose not to do any MMA (for the most part) outside of what I came across in TMA schools. But your arguments have a bias, of what the present conventions are in MMA. These are the kinds of issue which are only effectively addressed in person. Through study & training.
I think you are incredibly over-reliant on Karate as being an "end-all" martial art that has superior technique and counters for every approach in MMA. Just like every other martial art it has lots of benefits and lots of downsides. However it seems to formulate the mentality which you profess here, as being a "single-art" solution to a "multi-art problem." Maybe this is why we've seen such little cross-over success in MMA from Karate-based fighters, they are so confident in the superiority of their martial art that they don't cross-train and their style never adapts to become good enough to rise through the ranks of elite MMA fighters (just one theory).
Again, you're now arguing your conclusion is the analysis. I've posted a ton of stuff and now you're the one in the wrong if you think an internet discussion can bring you up to competence in karate in and in a day or two.
That's not how I remember it at all - I remember it being an absolutely brutal, grinding fight where Brown walked through tough shots to force the clinch and work trips and then just gas Wonderboy out from top position by always grinding and looking to do damage. I never once thought Brown was taking it easy on him or not trying to finish; Wonderboy was fighting a far more experienced guy that actually had other skillsets (like clinch-fighting and grappling) so when he was getting lit up from the outside he could just push into other positions where he was superior.
Okay, you are looking at it through different lenses, I stated that. You see (A) because of your MMA pwerspective and I (B) see my accomplished karate perspective. Surprise, different views. We can agree it was a tough fight for both?
Your initial posts were appreciated and offered some nuanced perspective into Karate. Your recent ones have veered into biased rants about the superiority of your preferred art without any relevant examples because of obtuse deflections (i.e. a keyboard can't do justice, you need to study thousands of hours like I have, here's a video of high-level karate guys that proves they would dominate in MMA).
End of the line bro.
You don't have to condescend to make a point with the "you're welcome" either.
Nice start. What are you going to do next beside inhabit a forum to learn about karate? Ball's in your court.
&Your welcome.
