International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[Islam Imamate]

it's not the middle of manhattan, it's east harlem. and a shitty bathroom is a shitty bathroom, and a tiny bedroom is a tiny bedroom, and a dirty kitchen is a dirty kitchen. it can NOT luxury and still be desirable to many.

This is absurd logic. There's a reason why these properties are very expensive despite not looking like mega-mansions, its because the locations are highly desirable. To be able to live in highly desirable localities is in and of itself a luxury and here you are acting like its a burden and a downside even. According to your logic someone living in a big, renovated house in the middle of Bumfuck West Virginia is better off if they have a nicer kitchen, just completely insane and out of touch.

i've never once said they can't afford nicer than the vast majority of americans, but you seem to not mind making up my position.

The implication is that because they might have to accept some trade offs that actually they're not living the life of luxury we can all clearly see that they are.

no, the YOU problem is that you tried to pretend there's little difference in lifestyle, financial freedom, etc between a person making $1m / yr and a billionaire. and that's obviously not remotely true. but you seem to prefer to make up positions from me than defend your position on this.

There is little difference and especially when compared to the difference between someone making $100k/yr and $1m/yr. I explained this already

It is true though. Sure in terms of purchasing power there's a big difference but difference between purchasing power and quality of life are not 1:1. As I said earlier each dollar you make contributes ever less to your material well being. If you're completely broke and homeless, to get a minimum wage job earning $15k/yr and a studio apartment is a massive quality of life increase even if you're still not making much money and the apartment is quite modest.

To go from making $100k/yr to $200k/yr is not as big of a QOL jump as going from $0 to $15k because at that point you can afford most of the necessities of life. The same applies the higher go up the income ladder with each successive dollar adding less and less to your overall material well-being and quality of life. The difference between Conor McGregor, worth ~$200 million, and Elon Musk, worth ~$400 billion, is probably miniscule compared to the jump between $100k-$200k and certainly non-existent compared to the jump between $0-$15k even though Musk is worth 2,000x what McGregor is. McGregor making 10x his net worth next year would virtually have zero impact on his ability to access the necessities in life and plan for retirement but some people, like the guy making $15k, might see significant QOL with just a 10%-25% increase in their salary.

Someone making $1m/yr could probably retire very early relative to the rest of the population.

*Well* within the budget. I actually can't even imagine someone making that much who buys such a cheap house.

Part of the argument that really bothers me is when people appeal to these localities where housing prices are very high and say "See, if you can only afford so much here" without ever considering why it is that these places have high costs of living. To be able to live in Manhattan is in and of itself a luxury given the proximity to amenities. Of course someone scraping buy in a slumlord's tiny apartment shared with three other roommates is making a steep trade off to live in NYC but someone buying a 3/1 in Manhattan that's about as large as the average new home today isn't really making much of a trade off even if the kitchen could use a renovation or one of the bedrooms is on the smaller side. In practice they are living a life of luxury relative to other New Yorkers, most of whom have to make huge compromises when it comes to space and quality.

 

[terrapin]

But isn't this just another lie? Like have you seen anyone ever say that the fact that people are doing better than ever means that we shouldn't do anything about poverty today or are you just making that up?

No this is you following me around like a puppy trying to catch me in something because you keep swinging and missing. Also you telling anyone to be honest is hilarious with the lies you've been caught in lately.

I can't control you but I got to be honest man. I'd be okay if you never reply to me again because you are so full of s*** that you're not even worth engaging with.

I was obviously using hyperbole with sinister.

 

[kflo]

This is absurd logic. There's a reason why these properties are very expensive despite not looking like mega-mansions, its because the locations are highly desirable. To be able to live in highly desirable localities is in and of itself a luxury and here you are acting like its a burden and a downside even. According to your logic someone living in a big, renovated house in the middle of Bumfuck West Virginia is better off because if have a nicer kitchen, just completely insane and out of touch.

yes, people make tradeoffs. that's part of the point. there's a tradeoff between living in a 3 br / 1 bath that needs renovating vs living in a large fully renovated house in the burbs. those are tradeoffs the billionaire doesn't need to make. so you sacrifice comforts for location. thx.

The implication is that because they might have to accept some trade offs that actually they're not living the life of luxury we can all clearly see that they are.

they are NOT living anywhere near the life of luxury as the billionaire, who would have a beautiful, fully renovated, to die for living space with no compromise.

There is little difference and especially when compared to the difference between someone making $100k/yr and $1m/yr. I explained this already

sorry, but again this is nonsense. there's a huge difference. helicopters, private jets and shit differences.

Someone making $1m/yr could probably retire very early relative to the rest of the population.

Part of the argument that really bothers me is when people appeal to these localities where housing prices are very high and say "See, if you can only afford so much here" without ever considering why it is that these places have high costs of living. To be able to live in Manhattan is in and of itself a luxury given the proximity to amenities. Of course someone scraping buy in a slumlord's tiny apartment shared with three other roommates is making a steep trade off to live in NYC but someone buying a 3/1 in Manhattan that's about as large as the average new home today isn't really making much of a trade off even if the kitchen could use a renovation or one of the bedrooms is on the smaller side. In practice they are living a life of luxury relative to other New Yorkers, most of whom have to make huge compromises when it comes to space and quality.

yes, most new yorkers make huge compromises, even those making $1m/yr. billionaires don't. you can't seem to accept this idea.

 

[Jack V Savage]

No this is you following me around like a puppy trying to catch me in something because you keep swinging and missing. Also you telling anyone to be honest is hilarious with the lies you've been caught in lately.

I can't control you but I got to be honest man. I'd be okay if you never reply to me again because you are so full of s*** that you're not even worth engaging with.

I was obviously using hyperbole with sinister.

OK, but do you have any comment on the issue or is personal nastiness your whole existence now? I know you're mad about being caught lying, but you can still think, can't you?

 

[Natural Order]

Can we get a definitive list of who the actual liars here are please? We need something to go by...

 

[Cid]

Do you have any evidence for that? I haven't seen any, and it doesn't fit my observations. It looks to me that rightists are moving away from supporting markets and the left is moving toward it. I think this is kind of a natural but delayed response to the end of the Cold War, as market economies are actually corrosive to hierarchies and generally a bad fit with rightism.

Hmm. I'm not sure that you're extracting wealth from the U.S. by investing in American companies (even on the secondary market). Can you walk through the logic?

It was anecdotal. Talking about personal experience. We'll have different observations and experiences because I live in a very different part of the world literally and politically. It's left and further left in my electorate. Overall the country is pretty conservative compared to much of euro though.

Market economies are a varying spectrum and I agree with supporting them through mixed economies.


I'm extracting the differential in the share price between the time I purchase and the time I sell and a small % of the paid profit. How much of it is meritorious against the risk taken is a scale.

Perfect world it's 100% but we don't live in a perfect world. Some if it is paramount to straight wealth transfer especially in regards to tax policies of your country and corporate welfare.

 

[terrapin]

OK, but do you have any comment on the issue or is personal nastiness your whole existence now? I know you're mad about being caught lying, but you can still think, can't you?

the issue is you following me around and swinging and missing because I know you lie and don't respect you and it pisses you off.

otherwise I am asking you politely to stop replying to me knowing you wont anyway.

 

[deviake]

Your system is communism. Like most communists you say it's socialism to sound like less of a nutcase.

Tы будешь первым в ГУЛАГЕ

 

[Islam Imamate]

yes, people make tradeoffs. that's part of the point. there's a tradeoff between living in a 3 br / 1 bath that needs renovating vs living in a large fully renovated house in the burbs. those are tradeoffs the billionaire doesn't need to make. so you sacrifice comforts for location. thx.

they are NOT living anywhere near the life of luxury as the billionaire, who would have a beautiful, fully renovated, to die for living space with no compromise.

The difference between them and billionaires is microscopic between when compared between the difference between someone living in poverty and someone in the middle class or between the middle class and a person making $1m/yr

sorry, but again this is nonsense. there's a huge difference. helicopters, private jets and shit differences.

Not anywhere near the difference between a poor person and the middle class. Those are all just shiny toys that make no serious difference in your material well being or quality of life. Its not like owning a home or having access to quality health insurance which are foundational needs to live as an ordinary American.

Just like the gap between someone who doesn't have a car vs someone who has a 2009 Toyota Corolla is far greater than the gap between the guy with the Corolla and someone driving a brand new Range Rover. Going from not having a car to having one is the biggest difference in quality of life and much more significant than going from driving an economy car to driving a luxury vehicle.

yes, most new yorkers make huge compromises, even those making $1m/yr. billionaires don't. you can't seem to accept this idea.

Even multi-millionaires like Depp have to make compromises, the ultrarich are not immune to opportunity cost and trade offs.

 

[kflo]

The difference between them and billionaires is microscopic between when compared between the difference between someone living in poverty and someone in the middle class or between the middle class and a person making $1m/yr

Oh we’re shifting goalposts now…again the difference is enormous. They literally view everything completely different.

Not anywhere near the difference between a poor person and the middle class. Those are all just shiny toys that make no serious difference in your material well being or quality of life. Its not like owning a home or having access to quality health insurance which are foundational needs to live as an ordinary American.

They’re not just shiny toys. But again for some reason you’re now trying to make this about poor people. And not the relative difference between making a mil in a year and being a billionaire. I know why you’re doing it…

Just like the gap between someone who doesn't have a car vs someone who has a 2009 Toyota Corolla is far greater than the gap between the guy with the Corolla and someone driving a brand new Range Rover. Going from not having a car to having one is the biggest difference in quality of life and much more significant than going from driving an economy car to driving a luxury vehicle.

Great argument for why having access to helicopters and jets and luxury living across the world is the same as not even contemplating those luxuries and knowing that adverse events outside your control could change everything.

Even multi-millionaires like Depp have to make compromises, the ultrarich are not immune to opportunity cost and trade offs.

Again the difference is you can make a million, make good life choices and still end up with financial stress. Depp didn’t do those things.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Sitting around all day crying because someone else has more money than you makes you look super cool though lmao

Out of interest would you say Elon Musk works millions of times harder than your parents did or do?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Out of interest would you say Elon Musk works millions of times harder than your parents did or do?

Not millions of times but he definitely works harder and more. My dad made time for his family. Musk, as far as I know, works pretty much all day every day. He also took bigger risks than my dad did.

My dad definitely could have been a lot richer if he had prioritized work over everything else and let his family fall apart like Musk did. He could have invested his money in the stock market rather than in providing a home for his wife and kids and he had the income that if he had done that well, he could have multiplied his money that way.

My dad also turned down several promotions over the course of his career so he'd have more time with his family and because my dad loved his very niche very technical job and had no interest in running a department.

Musk has always taken on a management role. Those pay more.

My dad also died relatively young of cancer and spent his last five years in poor health. Even still, I'd say my dad lived a happier and more fulfilled life than Musk has because of the choices he made. Financial wealth isn't the only measure of success.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Not millions of times but he definitely works harder and more. My dad made time for his family. Musk, as far as I know, works pretty much all day every day. He also took bigger risks than my dad did.

My dad definitely could have been a lot richer if he had prioritized work over everything else and let his family fall apart like Musk did. He could have invested his money in the stock market rather than in providing a home for his wife and kids and he had the income that if he had done that well, he could have multiplied his money that way.

My dad also turned down several promotions over the course of his career so he'd have more time with his family and because my dad loved his very niche very technical job and had no interest in running a department.

Musk has always taken on a management role. Those pay more.

So there should be a scale. Don't you think the difference in financial means between Musk and your parents is somewhat out of kilter with that scale though?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

So there should be a scale. Don't you think the difference in financial means between Musk and your parents is somewhat out of kilter with that scale though?

Not at all. Life is about choices. My dad could have been a multimillionaire weirdo like Musk if that's what he wanted to do. He had the capability. He made different choices. He maybe wouldn't have got AS rich as Musk but that's tied to a lot of things including luck.

You could be a multi millionaire as well. You prioritize other things. You spend a huge chunk of your time disingenuously arguing about politics when you could be working.

I could be a lot richer as well but I chose to start my own business doing what I love and there isn't a ton of money in that for most guys that do it. But there is the opportunity if I continue to work hard and sacrifice and invest wisely.

What I refuse to do is sit around whining and complaining and hoping that one day some big societal reset happens where everyone richer than me gets destroyed somehow and I come out of it as some kind of rich commissar in a brutal, corrupt communist system like you all seem to be hoping for.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Not at all. Life is about choices. My dad could have been a multimillionaire weirdo like Musk if that's what he wanted to do. He had the capability. He made different choices. He maybe wouldn't have got AS rich as Musk but that's tied to a lot of things including luck.

You could be a multi millionaire as well. You prioritize other things. You spend a huge chunk of your time disingenuously arguing about politics when you could be working.

I could be a lot richer as well but I chose to start my own business doing what I love and there isn't a ton of money in that for most guys that do it. But there is the opportunity if I continue to work hard and sacrifice and invest wisely.

What I refuse to do is sit around whining and complaining and hoping that one day some big societal reset happens where everyone richer than me gets destroyed somehow and I come out of it as some kind of rich commissar in a brutal, corrupt communist system like you all seem to be hoping for.

Everyone in a Western society is socialist to some degree dude. It's just where you want to draw the line. I don't personally want Musk's money, I don't need it, but there are people who work hard (probably harder than you or I) who have very little.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Everyone in a Western society is socialist to some degree dude. It's just where you want to draw the line. I don't personally want Musk's money, I don't need it, but there are people who work hard (probably harder than you or I) who have very little.

Then they should work smarter and make smarter decisions. People choose to have kids before marriage and drop out of school and gamble and smoke and drink and then whine that life isn't fair.

Stay in school.
Don't have kids at least until you're married.
Don't drink to excess, do drugs or gamble.
Work 2 jobs when you're young - you won't have time later.
Invest in something safe like GICs.

Find me ONE person who made all those smart choices and is still poor.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Then they should work smarter and make smarter decisions. People choose to have kids before marriage and drop out of school and gamble and smoke and drink and then whine that life isn't fair.

Stay in school.
Don't have kids at least until you're married.
Don't drink to excess, do drugs or gamble.
Work 2 jobs when you're young - you won't have time later.
Invest in something safe like GICs.

Find me ONE person who made all those smart choices and is still poor.

If people make bad decisions when they're young and stupid is it fair for them to be that hard to recover from when they're older?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

If people make bad decisions when they're young and stupid is it fair for them to be that hard to recover from when they're older?

Yes. That's literally what fair means.

 

[filthybliss]

Again, making $1m a year doesn’t mean you have lifetime financial security. Neither does being a millionaire. Thanks for the thoughtful response!

You have to royally fuck up in terms of fiscal management then…

But seriously, what type of response do you expect? The average household salary in America is $80,000 annually.

I don’t disagree that federal tax should have more brackets. Taxing everyone making north of 600k is silly.

 

[Andy Capp]

But isn't this just another lie? Like have you seen anyone ever say that the fact that people are doing better than ever means that we shouldn't do anything about poverty today or are you just making that up?

That's one of the things about this place that give me an ache from shaking my head: that someone will point fingers yelling "Sophistry!" and then post something like that.

Yesterday, I saw a post where a person put inflation in quotation marks like it's a euphemism or something.

@terrapin I suggest you take a deep breath and go for a long walk. Over the past while your posts have been more and more illogical and hypocritical, while also sounding rather self-righteous and conceited. This isn't becoming of someone who constantly points to his faith as his guide to good behaviour.