International Oligarchy is not just a Russian phenomenon. It exists right here in the USA.

[DoctorTaco]

Definitely relevant. Disgusting reality.

But I find it funny that none of the anti-capitalists in here have ever put forth their position of wealth lines. Where is the line? Can you show us?

You understand effort and capability are huge factors in this problem too right? Not just coincidences.

A billion dollars. Let’s draw the line at a billy. If you get 999,999,999.99 then you won capitalism. You’ll get a plaque and a squeezer from a thick heeled waitress from dennys. Any money above and beyond is taxed at 100%

 

[DoctorTaco]

How do you stem the downturn in creativity due to market caps?

I would argue people who don’t have to work will be more creative in their pursuits

 

[deviake]

This ain’t a free country there’s so many laws and regulations .

Debatably, yes, but not for your pedantic, sarcastic reasoning.

We can't have a free market or you get Monopoly. It's heavily reliant on the state, planned and centralized. Fax don't care about your feelings. See, "too big to fail".

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I don't see our current situation as inherently that "creative", a strongly monopolistic oligarchy will tend to stifle a lot of creativity which could be disruptive.

How many buyouts do we see which essentially just shut down a competitor?

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Tax wise as well I feel like we've always had a false sense of the "class war" sold to us by the political mainstream, the idea that its a zero sum game between the working class and the middle class when in reality both of those groups are being bilked(just the first worse than the second) by a tiny percentage of the ultra rich who pay very little tax.

 

[Natural Order]

I would argue people who don’t have to work will be more creative in their pursuits

Oh you've been duped by that techno utopia....rofl.

 

[Natural Order]

A billion dollars. Let’s draw the line at a billy. If you get 999,999,999.99 then you won capitalism. You’ll get a plaque and a squeezer from a thick heeled waitress from dennys. Any money above and beyond is taxed at 100%

Finally, somebody put a random number on it. Congrats.

 

[kflo]

Sure and that's a good thing right? Or do you think they should get a tax cut?

Well I personally think taxes for those making $1m are currently too high. These are federal tax rates and making $1m in NY is different than making $1m in rural America. I don’t expect you to agree.

In practice the average person making $1m/yr probably doesn't experience financial stress that is anything like what a lower middle class person does

True of course……..

and most of them have probably never experienced it.

Many have.

Again, that’s my main point. There’s a huge difference between having generational wealth and making a lot of money in a year.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Well I personally think taxes for those making $1m are currently too high. These are federal tax rates and making $1m in NY is different than making $1m in rural America. I don’t expect you to agree.

Yeah it is different, the millionaire New Yorker has the luxury of living in arguably the greatest city in the world.

What makes you say we tax multi-millionaires too much? How much should we tax them?

Many have.

Proportionally speaking I imagine they're a statistical anomaly

Again, that’s my main point. There’s a huge difference between having generational wealth and making a lot of money in a year.

There really isn't much of a difference in their day to day quality of life and long term outlook. The gap between them and billionaires in terms of quality of life is small compared to the gap between them and the lower middle class

 

[Jack V Savage]

Very few on the left are anti-capitalists but I'll concede it's a growing sentiment largely due to the wealth gap, house prices and inflation.

Do you have any evidence for that? I haven't seen any, and it doesn't fit my observations. It looks to me that rightists are moving away from supporting markets and the left is moving toward it. I think this is kind of a natural but delayed response to the end of the Cold War, as market economies are actually corrosive to hierarchies and generally a bad fit with rightism.

The issue is the reward balance between the effort, capability and capital dynamic within the American capitalist system.

I'm a pretty good example of the problem.

I contribute almost nothing to the American economy because I am not American, I'm Australian. I contribute to the Australian economy through work in Australia.

But I am very capable of extracting wealth through the American capitalist system.
Market Summary > Vanguard US Total Market Shares Index AUD ETF
471.80 AUD +123.30 (35.38%) year to date.

Hmm. I'm not sure that you're extracting wealth from the U.S. by investing in American companies (even on the secondary market). Can you walk through the logic?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Sure and that's a good thing right? Or do you think they should get a tax cut?

In practice the average person making $1m/yr probably doesn't experience financial stress that is anything like what a lower middle class person does and most of them have probably never experienced it.

I'm not sure I buy this, exactly. Stress is subjective and does depend on your baseline. Someone whose business took a downturn and might have to take their kids out of their $60K a year private school and put them in public school might feel as stressed and bad about it as someone who has to skip a meal because they got an unexpected car repair needed.

However, I don't think any of that is a matter for policy.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Tax wise as well I feel like we've always had a false sense of the "class war" sold to us by the political mainstream, the idea that its a zero sum game between the working class and the middle class when in reality both of those groups are being bilked(just the first worse than the second) by a tiny percentage of the ultra rich who pay very little tax.

This isn't really true. But more than that, the whining about taxes is a big part of why the U.S. has the system it does. We're very constrained in the kinds of programs we can do because we barely tax the middle class.

 

[kflo]

Yeah it is different, the millionaire New Yorker has the luxury of living in arguably the greatest city in the world.

And $1m gets you a 1 bedroom apt…..

What makes you say we tax multi-millionaires too much? How much should we tax them?

Well I think a total tax burden of 40%+ is too much for the cohort I’m talking about.

Proportionally speaking I imagine they're a statistical anomaly

I don’t know what you mean. It’s not a tiny %.

There really isn't much of a difference in their day to day quality of life and long term outlook. The gap between them and billionaires in terms of quality of life is small compared to the gap between them and the lower middle class

There’s an enormous difference between a billionaire and a millionaire in almost every way.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

This isn't really true. But more than that, the whining about taxes is a big part of why the U.S. has the system it does. We're very constrained in the kinds of programs we can do because we barely tax the middle class.

Basically the voice of the centralist liberal establishment here and surprise surprise he's sticking up for interests of the very wealthy.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Oh you've been duped by that techno utopia....rofl.

? Idk what that is or what you’re talking about

 

[Islam Imamate]

I'm not sure I buy this, exactly. Stress is subjective and does depend on your baseline. Someone whose business took a downturn and might have to take their kids out of their $60K a year private school and put them in public school might feel as stressed and bad about it as someone who has to skip a meal because they got an unexpected car repair needed.

However, I don't think any of that is a matter for policy.

That's true but the same can be said of billionaires. Someone worth $2 billion who loses 99% of their net worth is still in the top .5% but might experience that as deeply stressful.

That's not the kind of stress policy should be worried about unless there's a systemic issue causing that. To the extent that it exists the "might skip a meal" concern is something policy makers should be taking seriously,

And $1m gets you a 1 bedroom apt…..

A person making $1 million annually is almost certainly able to afford more than that

Well I think a total tax burden of 40%+ is too much for the cohort I’m talking about.

Why? If we can't even tax the top 1% who should we tax?

I don’t know what you mean. It’s not a tiny %.

I'd bet they are a tiny % but could be convinced otherwise with some quality data.

There’s an enormous difference between a billionaire and a millionaire in almost every way.

A millionaire in the sense of just barely being worth $1 million sure but if your salary is $1 million/yr then not really. Both can easily afford high end homes, cars, and education for their children in addition to standard luxuries like vacations and high end consumer goods.

 

[Deleted member 592570]

You understand effort and capability are huge factors in this problem too right?

That's why they want communism. They don't have the capability to compete or the discipline to put forth the effort. So everyone must be brought down to their level.

It's just pure narcissism. Nothing could possibly be their fault because they're perfect beings. So if they aren't rich and successful, it must be because the system is holding them down, man.

Ironically the exact same shit white nationalists think.

 

[Sinister]

I don't see our current situation as inherently that "creative", a strongly monopolistic oligarchy will tend to stifle a lot of creativity which could be disruptive.

How many buyouts do we see which essentially just shut down a competitor?

Markets tend to stamp out creativity, because all capitalists want is more money. To some degree that innovation makes more money, innovation gets noticed. But the moment capitalists get a hold of that innovation they start doing capitalist sh*t.

- cut labor costs
- cut quality control
- find cheaper materials to use which also reduces quality
- expand, expand, expand
- stock buybacks to artificially inflate value

This is the story of why so many Americans say this same statement over the years:

"I remember when _______ were made so much bigger and better."

Hell even clothing and shoes tear up way faster than they used to while costing twice as much. And we are always conditioned to blame the Chinese, blame Mexicans, we blame the labour. We dont always blame the Company maximizing profits, or just sheer incompetence. This is also why many chain businesses shut down. The moment PE firms get them, everything goes down the toilet.

I was watching this yesterday about California Pizza Kitchen, because that restaurant was pretty popular here in Vegas, but they fell off. Company Man did a video about why:

 

[Deleted member 592570]

Billionaires should not exist.

Too bad you don't get to decide who gets to exist then, I guess.

You'll have to just work harder and stop eyeing other people's money.

 

[deviake]

Throwback:



To get a universal single payer healthcare system in the US, we would, from my understanding, have to raise taxes on the middle class. None the less, there's a lot we could pay for by significantly raising taxes on the wealthy.

As an aside, I remember someone in another thread laughing at me for this point, I don't remember who it was.