Official Women's Division Discussion #26

[Rizz]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

All these years in MMA and I still can't see a single area where she improved. Her striking has not improved. Her TKO of Bec was awesome but in reality was a fluke. She keep throwing wild kicks in a fight she was losing and one actually hit. Her gappling has not improved. Most of her losses are by subs. She had not gotten stronger. She did not have a strength advantage over Amanda who is a natural 115er. All she had at the start of her career was cardio and toughness and it seems like that is still the case now. She will still get paid due to her name value but whoever managed her development might have done the worse job of developing a prospect I have ever seen.

 

[Mittens]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

All these years in MMA and I still can't see a single area where she improved.

As a certified armchair psychologist, I would assupull - she didn't really care about getting betteer at fighting, and just uses it to get opportunities as a pseudo-celeb that pay a shitton more than UFC? As long as she stays (stayed?) in the UFC without really having to bother, the exposure is enough, and that's it. But then again, she's tough/scrappy in the cage... though that's only 15-25 mins, instead of the gruelling training/sparring parts of it all. Takes a lot of energy being a rockstar.

 

[The Elemental O]

MMA Youtube channel MMAOnPoint uploaded a video ranking the most influential figures in WMMA before the era of Rhonda Rousey.

 

[Nintendomark]

I guess PVZ winds up in Bellator now with her husband, whenever they decide to do cards again, lol.

Ribas continues to be a fighter I have my eye on and agree her personality makes me like her even more. Looking at the rankings, a lot of SW fighters seem to be booked. I know Tecia Torres is coming off a win, that might be a good next fight for her.

The power and pressure of Andrade continues to be a factor, and it came into play a big way in the 3rd rd. Rose didn't look quite as impressive as she did in the 1st fight before getting slammed, and definitely did enough to get the W. It did make me think there are more areas that Weili might be able to give her problems though.

 

[Rizz]

I guess PVZ winds up in Bellator now with her husband, whenever they decide to do cards again, lol.

Ribas continues to be a fighter I have my eye on and agree her personality makes me like her even more. Looking at the rankings, a lot of SW fighters seem to be booked. I know Tecia Torres is coming off a win, that might be a good next fight for her.

The power and pressure of Andrade continues to be a factor, and it came into play a big way in the 3rd rd. Rose didn't look quite as impressive as she did in the 1st fight before getting slammed, and definitely did enough to get the W. It did make me think there are more areas that Weili might be able to give her problems though.

It seems like Rose has different cardio thresholds depending on her opponent. She can go forever in a pure striking contest with Joanna but barely made it to 3 round against Jessica. It seems that if you force her to grapple her cardio decreases dramatically. The same thing happened in her fight vs Carla.

 

[Rizz]

With Julia Avila and Amanda Ribas we have some great new talent with lovable personalities. Hopefully both reach their potential.

 

[Nintendomark]

With Julia Avila and Amanda Ribas we have some great new talent with lovable personalities. Hopefully both reach their potential.

Mostly basic questions, but her English is pretty good and her personality comes through a lot. Her laugh is adorable. Not sure if she or Marina Rodriguez are my favorite prospects in the division.

 

[leto1776]

Chelsea Hackett is scheduled for the Contenders Series. Guess we’ll know who she’s fighting.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

All these years in MMA and I still can't see a single area where she improved. Her striking has not improved. Her TKO of Bec was awesome but in reality was a fluke. She keep throwing wild kicks in a fight she was losing and one actually hit. Her gappling has not improved. Most of her losses are by subs. She had not gotten stronger. She did not have a strength advantage over Amanda who is a natural 115er. All she had at the start of her career was cardio and toughness and it seems like that is still the case now. She will still get paid due to her name value but whoever managed her development might have done the worse job of developing a prospect I have ever seen.

The tipping point for me was when she left TAM to go and get married, she was improving rapidly there and seems to have lost all that progress since she left.

 

[Larisa.]

Shooto Brasil is back on the 26th. Valesca Machado will fight Karen Thalita in a strawweight bout. Machado (also known as Tina Black) signed with Invicta a few months ago and has fought at both 105 and 115; has wins over Julia Polastri (Shooto 115 Champ), Monique Adriane & Maria Ribeiro.

 

[fifthletter]

Kudos to Rose and Ribas. All you savants called it! I was way off, though I do think that Andrade vs Rose was pretty close.

Really cool that Rosa won as well. Seems like her and Avila may have been a sneaky good matchup.

Lastly, it's interesting to read the analysis on Paige, there have been some solid points. I remember she didn't have to go to Tuf because she was too young, but then ended up making her UFC debut really early. She's had a ton of injuries, switched camps a couple times, and just never really settled into a groove as a fighter. I sort of feel this way about Mackenzie Dern, and once again this is my somewhat rudimentary understanding of the sport. I just think its one thing to say I'm well rounded, but it's another just to kind of compete without a style. I feel like Paige initially had one, to press forward and be aggressive, but it really wasn't complimented by a martial art. I think Mackenzie will go through similar struggles as she faces the better competition, if she doesn't improve a lot wrestling or striking (i know Mackenzie is a jit-jitsu ninja). Also a key difference is Mackenzie has competed at the highest level of a sport, which I think is why her ceiling is a bit higher than Paige's. Nevertheless I'm not sure if it's something "wrong" with Paige, she's just faced a lot of stiff competition and there are a lot of great fighters out there. Like I'm a fan of Alexa Grasso, but they're around the same age and seemingly have had the same amount of bumps. And I think AG is great, but her matchups have been tough. I think someone posted a similar sentiment, but Bellator won't be much easier at 125. Even some of the fighters with losing records will be stiff competition.

 

[msm1981]

As far as Paige VanZant goes what she might need just to get things back on track might be
a stint at Invicta so she can asses things and possibly get some much needed confidence to
turn things around.

 

[Dsfdandan]

As far as Paige VanZant goes what she might need just to get things back on track might be
a stint at Invicta so she can asses things and possibly get some much needed confidence to
turn things around.

Paige is waaaayyyyy too expensive for invicta.

 

[Eater of Souls]

As a certified armchair psychologist, I would assupull - she didn't really care about getting betteer at fighting, and just uses it to get opportunities as a pseudo-celeb that pay a shitton more than UFC? As long as she stays (stayed?) in the UFC without really having to bother, the exposure is enough, and that's it. But then again, she's tough/scrappy in the cage... though that's only 15-25 mins, instead of the gruelling training/sparring parts of it all. Takes a lot of energy being a rockstar.

It has always been my opinion that she was more focused on being famous instead of just focusing on fighting. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but it limits your development as an athlete. Comments such as "I was born to be in the spotlight" always seemed to display her end-goal but this detracts from focus on short-term goals.

She also had far too much push to early. Wherever she goes and whatever she does, she needs to give it 100% of her attention because her competitors certainly are.

 

[leto1776]

 

[leto1776]

 

[Fantomas187]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

All these years in MMA and I still can't see a single area where she improved. Her striking has not improved. Her TKO of Bec was awesome but in reality was a fluke. She keep throwing wild kicks in a fight she was losing and one actually hit. Her gappling has not improved. Most of her losses are by subs. She had not gotten stronger. She did not have a strength advantage over Amanda who is a natural 115er. All she had at the start of her career was cardio and toughness and it seems like that is still the case now. She will still get paid due to her name value but whoever managed her development might have done the worse job of developing a prospect I have ever seen.

Look at her loses - Michelle waterson, rose namajunas, tecia torres, Amanda Ribas are all top level fighters. Her stance and movement looked a lot better against Ribas than it used to.

 

[leto1776]

Look at her loses - Michelle waterson, rose namajunas, tecia torres, Amanda Ribas are all top level fighters. Her stance and movement looked a lot better against Ribas than it used to.

Ribas hasn’t proven herself to be a top fighter yet.

 

[aerius]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

MMA training for women is questionable at best, there are very few trainers or gyms which do a good job of it. The majority of WMMA fighters stall out somewhere around Paige's level, she just happens to be a much more visible case thanks to her marketing & popularity. For every Trevor Wittman or ATT there's at least 100 Edmonds. You can probably count the number of good WMMA coaches/gyms on your hands and have fingers left over.

Also, gyms & trainers often do not give the same attention to their women and hold them to the same standards as the men. Take Chookagian for instance and her fights against the Shevchenko sisters. You do not see guys from the Danaher/Gracie camp making the kind of basic mistakes that she was making all over the place in both fights, they drill that shit out of them and make them do it right. You don't see men from that camp squeezing the shit out of a rear naked choke without getting it on the neck, nor do you see guys who don't know how to work and reposition the choke under then chin when the opponent isn't even fighting hands. Or take the way they were training working from the bottom position against Valentina, the way they were holding & using grips was totally different from the way Valentina does it. If a grappling novice like me can see these details you can bet that the Danaher/Gracie team can as well, and the fact that they don't care enough to do it right tells you how much effort they put into the women.

Of course, the fighter bears part of the responsibility as well. All the champions and top contenders are 100% dedicated to fighting, fighting is their life, end of story. It's a lifestyle for them. Not every person can live that way.

 

[vgff]

I have a serious question. What went wrong with PVZ's development? After the win against Felice it seemed like she was destined to be a superstar. All she had to do was be a decent fighter.

All these years in MMA and I still can't see a single area where she improved. Her striking has not improved. Her TKO of Bec was awesome but in reality was a fluke. She keep throwing wild kicks in a fight she was losing and one actually hit. Her gappling has not improved. Most of her losses are by subs. She had not gotten stronger. She did not have a strength advantage over Amanda who is a natural 115er. All she had at the start of her career was cardio and toughness and it seems like that is still the case now. She will still get paid due to her name value but whoever managed her development might have done the worse job of developing a prospect I have ever seen.

1. the skill level at 115 evolves fast. what may have looked like a mid/top-level win 5 years ago isn't necessarily the same today.
2. the massive marketing/push probably has a lot of fans confused that she's an elite level talent
3. outside distractions (insta,dancing with the stars,etc.)