Judo Official Judo Thread

[Granco]

Anyone cross train Judo and wrestling? Do they compliment one another?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Anyone cross train Judo and wrestling? Do they compliment one another?

Interesting someone would post this. I am every second week in another city for work, where I have the occasion to wrestle once per week.
Am thinking about doing greco (they have both freestyle & greco) because I imagine that it has a lot of crossover with judo.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Anyone cross train Judo and wrestling? Do they compliment one another?

Interesting someone would post this. I am every second week in another city for work, where I have the occasion to wrestle once per week.
Am thinking about doing greco (they have both freestyle & greco) because I imagine that it has a lot of crossover with judo.

My experience in wrestling is very limited, but I'd like to do some more if I had the time.

The absence of the gi feels weird to me, while some judo habits may be detrimental within the rules - I imagine it works the other way too.

Having said that, experience exploding with your hips, pushing, pulling, twisting, etc will help you pick some things up easier.

I also imagine greco would be an easier transition, mostly because it seems to operate at more of a judo-type range.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Kbits]

Anyone cross train Judo and wrestling?

Yes

Do they compliment one another?

Yes

 

[RJ Green]

grappling is grappling. pretend you're a chef. if you've got the practice, the knife skills, and the right ingredients, you should be able to make a damn fine meal. you're obviously going to be stronger in the cuisine you enjoy/practice making the most, but once you know how to cook, it's just a matter of finding the right recipe.

soooooo, when you're switching between disciplines/cuisines, the only thing that's really changing is the menu. it's just a matter of adapting your skills to suit the tastes of whomever you're serving.

or don't change the menu at all. humble pie is humble pie. it's delicious.

what i'm saying is suplex the fuck out of everything.

 

[DatCutman]

Whitebelt here. The link between moving around, kuzushi, and actually throwing is impregnable to my oafish mind. Like, how the hell do you set up kuzushi? How do you start it? I'm not expecting to be an Olympic whitebelt or anything, but I feel like I somehow know less and less with each class.

To compare it to chess, I'm not expecting to beat the other guy, but not only do I not know how the pieces move, I dont even know how to sit in the chair to look at the board.

 

[Russky]

Like, how the hell do you set up kuzushi? How do you start it?

Kuzushi is not some Japanese magic. This is just mechanical off-balance.

How do you put someone into off-balance position? First, you ensure that your opponent cannot move, and then pull/push to the side where you want him to fall.
To ensure that opponent cannot move you either put weight on him so he cannot walk, or you lift him up on his toes. The former is usually for the backward throws like ouchi gari and osoto gari, the latter is for the forward throws like tai otoshi and seoi nage.

Which throw do you practice now? Maybe I can explain how to set it up properly.

 

[QingTian]

Whitebelt here. The link between moving around, kuzushi, and actually throwing is impregnable to my oafish mind. Like, how the hell do you set up kuzushi? How do you start it? I'm not expecting to be an Olympic whitebelt or anything, but I feel like I somehow know less and less with each class.

To compare it to chess, I'm not expecting to beat the other guy, but not only do I not know how the pieces move, I dont even know how to sit in the chair to look at the board.

Kuzushi is a state of unbalance, not an action. Sounds pedantic but the point is that most people are already weak in some direction. Kuzushi already exists and you just need to train to recognize it fast enough to capitalize.

The problem isn't actually kuzushi but how to remove the obstructions uke gives (grips and also body movement) so that you gain control over him and therefore time to perform the throw. The key is to make uke give you a reaction that not only is in the direction you want, but also delays his next response so you have time to finish.

That's the meat of Judo and way more than I can post about. This might sound unhelpful but I think in the long run it makes you solve the right problem. When I started I thought kuzushi was enough but it made me reactionary rather than learning how to lead uke.

Still, reactionary may be the first step as you learn when to apply certain throws. White belts self-kuzushi anyways so it doesn't have to be too complicated.

 

[RJ Green]

git gud

 

[DatCutman]

The problem isn't actually kuzushi but how to remove the obstructions uke gives (grips and also body movement) so that you gain control over him and therefore time to perform the throw. The key is to make uke give you a reaction that not only is in the direction you want, but also delays his next response so you have time to finish.

How do you put someone into off-balance position? First, you ensure that your opponent cannot move, and then pull/push to the side where you want him to fall.
To ensure that opponent cannot move you either put weight on him so he cannot walk, or you lift him up on his toes.

Thank you both! That is a better way to frame the problem.

Which throw do you practice now? Maybe I can explain how to set it up properly.

The throw I've spent the most time on is Ashi Guruma, as I joined a school in mid cycle of a deep dive on Ashi Guruma. I'm bad at all throws, as such is the nature of a whitebelt, but it is my least shitty throw (and most spammed attempt).

git gud

God I'm trying to. This Judo shit is the hardest thing I've ever tried to learn. My brain can't comprehend it, and it's driving me insane.

 

[RJ Green]

God I'm trying to. This Judo shit is the hardest thing I've ever tried to learn. My brain can't comprehend it, and it's driving me insane.

wanna know the secret? you're never good at judo. just better.

 

[QingTian]

Ashi guruma is not an easy throw to do...quite the opposite. Basically imagine a knee high fence, and having to pull/pivot uke over it. So what quickly becomes obvious is that you don't have a lot of power standing on one foot. What people do is then either 1) a really fast spin turn 2) time when uke's legs are together right before he steps.

Personally I find 2) much easier. Uke tries to widen his legs with a lateral-ish step, but can't, so his upper body keeps going. Whereupon you throw him down.

The disadvantage of 2) is that uke has to provide the energy, which often they won't, and it only works in certain directions.

 

[DatCutman]

Ashi guruma is not an easy throw to do...quite the opposite. Basically imagine a knee high fence, and having to pull/pivot uke over it. So what quickly becomes obvious is that you don't have a lot of power standing on one foot. What people do is then either 1) a really fast spin turn 2) time when uke's legs are together right before he steps.

Personally I find 2) much easier. Uke tries to widen his legs with a lateral-ish step, but can't, so his upper body keeps going. Whereupon you throw him down.

The disadvantage of 2) is that uke has to provide the energy, which often they won't, and it only works in certain directions.

Gotcha; I guess it was just bad luck of the draw to start during that throw! I'll return to the dai ikkyo throws and maybe my suffering will start to bare fruits. Is Hiza Guruma any easier (comparatively)? In my whitebelt mind, the "circular stepping/throwing my hips around in a circular fashion/whatever that footwork is called" I've been working on would seem to still carry over, but the main difference would be using the far-from-person-leg as opposed to the near-to-person-leg (which based on your comments seems like it would remove the need for the xtreme speed spin). Or am I wrong?

 

[QingTian]

Hiza guruma is the same principle as ashi guruma, and both can be done on the closer or farther leg. The motion you need to do actually depends whether you are attacking a close or far leg.

HG is easier to do mechanically, so the timing (2) method has an advantage. AG has more power but takes more timing (and time) to wind up and execute, so some find the power (1) method easier.

So you aren't wrong. Pretty good insight for a beginner actually. Or did you say you were you a BB in BJJ?

 

[Russky]

To understand kuzushi for Ashi Guruma start standing with your feet shoulder width apart. Move your weight to your left toe and turn your head and shoulders to your right until your right leg is up in the air. Hold on to something with your left hand so you do not fall in the process. Try to get it to the point where you'd fall if you let your left hand go.

This is the position you want your partner to be for the throw. A good uke would do all that by himself to compensate for your mistakes and help you get a good throw.

 

[killakoy]

The problem isn't actually kuzushi but how to remove the obstructions uke gives (grips and also body movement) so that you gain control over him and therefore time to perform the throw. The key is to make uke give you a reaction that not only is in the direction you want, but also delays his next response so you have time to finish.

This took me until after high school to learn and I'd have been so much better if this epiphany had hit sooner. Probably most judoka can say that.

 

[The Thrill]

wanna know the secret? you're never good at judo. just better.

truest statement ever written on the internet

 

[DatCutman]

Hiza guruma is the same principle as ashi guruma, and both can be done on the closer or farther leg. The motion you need to do actually depends whether you are attacking a close or far leg.

HG is easier to do mechanically, so the timing (2) method has an advantage. AG has more power but takes more timing (and time) to wind up and execute, so some find the power (1) method easier.

So you aren't wrong. Pretty good insight for a beginner actually. Or did you say you were you a BB in BJJ?

I am a BJJ black belt, but my stand up is non existent. I dodged it like the plague at white-blue, only focused on retarded leg lock entries at purple and brown, and then at black realized I needed to get my shit together. I started training with some Sumo dudes, did a sumo competition, managed to medal. Do the occasional wrestling classes with the wrestlers in the gym. But one day the school's judo coach showed up by happenstance and did some rounds with us. He gripped the mawashi, which I realize now just bundles my entire hip girdle up with a nice little bow, and said "Oh wow, this is a great grip," and proceeded to throw everybody heels over head until he got bored and left. I figured that there was potentially something to this judo stuff. Making a vow not to be the guy that spams shitty sacrifice throws so he can try and play guard, I entered the Judo club.

Maybe it's been a while since I've started something totally mentally fresh, but jesus christ, Judo is far, far harder to penetrate intellectually than BJJ. You get to cheat so many body mechanics when you're on the ground, it really, really makes me appreciate guard work. The windows of opportunity are so much more wide, and forgiving in BJJ. It gives me terrible memories of my failed attempts at learning striking arts, where you have to "feel" what's going on, and there aren't many "tricks" that will let you skip the line to jump straight to mediocre. Truly horrifying, but for better or worse I'm addicted.

Doesn't help that my wife (also a BJJ black belt) started Judo the same time as me, but is way better. It's killing me inside.

 

[DatCutman]

To understand kuzushi for Ashi Guruma start standing with your feet shoulder width apart. Move your weight to your left toe and turn your head and shoulders to your right until your right leg is up in the air. Hold on to something with your left hand so you do not fall in the process. Try to get it to the point where you'd fall if you let your left hand go.

This is the position you want your partner to be for the throw. A good uke would do all that by himself to compensate for your mistakes and help you get a good throw.

Wow, that is an incredibly helpful mental exercise. Thank you!

 

[Russky]

If you liked that we can add a few more details:

Position 1: Step forward with your right foot in front of the partners' right foot. Your knee is bent and weight is on your right foot toes. If you do not bend your knee your kuzushi won't work. You'll know that if you feel that your opponent is heavy and you have to use force to throw. If you put weight on your heel you won't be able to turn enough and you will feel that parthers leg that you trying to pick is far away.
This first step does not use any muscle power. Just move your foot.

Position 2. With your left foot step behind your right foot. Again, knee bent and weight is on your toes. Your right thigh should be touching your left leg. Left foot now points to the same direction as your partner's feet.
If your feet are far apart after first step you screwed Position 1.

Position 3. Kuzushi. Your right hand comes to your shoulder as if you are trying to lift a kettlebell. Your left elbow is up and hand is parallel to the ground. Your knee is still bent! You should have feeling that opponent is high above you and you are trying to get under him. Now you turn your head and shoulders and put all your weight on your left foot. Your partner is in the "kuszushi" position that I described before.
At this point you should be able to stand on your bent(!) left leg and move your right foot anywhere you want. If you have to put weight on you right foot to be balanced then move your left foot wherever it feels stable.
An advanced tip: Your right hand twists inward and left twists outward. This helps killing the slack in the gi.

Position 4. This is straightforward. You bend forward while keeping your right leg in front of your partner's leg. If you did all steps before correctly you won't feel any partner's weight. If you are especially good you will remember to point your right foot toes down to tense up right leg and this will send partner high in the air.

Typical beginners mistakes:

Making first step too close: Your butt should not be touching the partner. If you touched you stepped too close.
Not bending knees: The feeling is that opponent is below you.
Flat footed: You start turning your body and your knee is twisting.
First step on a wrong spot: you cannot lift your right foot in position 3.
Too much slack in the grips: You turn your head and shoulders in position 3 and opponent does not come into "kuzushi" position.
Gripping with all five fingers instead of three: partner is heavy. You cannot get under him.
Dropping your left elbow: The throw works, but it's a crappy throw feeling. Cannot explain.
Using force and speed: When you do the throw imagine that your partner is 5-year-old kid and you do not want to hurt him. This is how much force should be necessary for the throw. Make pauses as you move from one position to another and adjust your body before the next move.