Judo Official Judo Thread

[BKR]

This is helpful thanks.

My problem is that my coaches teach a " move of the week" type curriculum and focus on uchikomi rather than randori. They also don't really teach any kumi kata setups. They instead focus on foot sweeps and show combinations of different ashi waza, but I can tell that's not really a technique I can do well.

I'm not sure whether to try and really focus on the foot sweeps in randori because that is what is taught the most, or if I keep focusing on the sacrifice throws because I can kind of do them.

Ashi waza are good to set up other throws, or as stand alone attacks. However, without knowing how to at least in a basic manner get a usable grip, not so much.

Learning ashi waza is good. They do take time, though, like anything else, and you really, really need a good uke.

As noted previously, judo has a steep learning curve. You are simply not going to get better over night. RJGreen emphasized similar points to mine in a previous post. That's not a coincidence.

Until you get your basic posture, movement, and gripping down, that learning curve is going to be very, very, steep.

 

[Russky]

Until you get your basic posture, movement, and gripping down, that learning curve is going to be very, very, steep.

+1
It just takes time. It is not really important which throw you learn, only how many times you land. When you stop thinking about falls and defense in randori and concentrate on your offences then it will be different.

 

[BKR]

+1
It just takes time. It is not really important which throw you learn, only how many times you land. When you stop thinking about falls and defense in randori and concentrate on your offences then it will be different.

yeah, but he needs to have instructors who know how to train. Not sure that is the case...

 

[Russky]

yeah, but he needs to have instructors who know how to train. Not sure that is the case...

Nah, this is simple:
You take a guy and throw him; then he throws you. Repeat 10000 times.

Some people estimate that to reach BB level in judo takes 1500-2000 mat hours.

 

[BKR]

Nah, this is simple:
You take a guy and throw him; then he throws you. Repeat 10000 times.

Some people estimate that to reach BB level in judo takes 1500-2000 mat hours.

Simple indeed, but without proper instruction, it is a much more difficult process.

 

[SRN]

Not sure what you mean by "understand what I need to do" ?

Kata, if taught well, is OK to do as a small percentage of your training time. Unless you want to specialize in kata competition, but most beginners/novices are not going to do that.

I meant I think doing kata will help me understand the technique and the step by step of throws etc. I didn't have a chance to do kata last Monday, there was no partner for me and the rest of the guys were getting ready for some comp so I just watched instead. It's pretty cool, I would like to give a try.

 

[Thycidides]

Simple indeed, but without proper instruction, it is a much more difficult process.

Ashi waza are good to set up other throws, or as stand alone attacks. However, without knowing how to at least in a basic manner get a usable grip, not so much.

Learning ashi waza is good. They do take time, though, like anything else, and you really, really need a good uke.

As noted previously, judo has a steep learning curve. You are simply not going to get better over night. RJGreen emphasized similar points to mine in a previous post. That's not a coincidence.

Until you get your basic posture, movement, and gripping down, that learning curve is going to be very, very, steep.

''

How do you teach people to grip? Let's say I was to walk into you judo club. What would you have me doing with my grips?

I asked one of my coaches about that today and he said my problem wasn't gripping as much as not being able to read my opponent in randori and trying too hard to do my own technique rather than reacting to my opponent's movement . He said I just need to spend more time with resisting opponents and to randori more.

Also its kind of odd you think im look scared in that sparring video. I can see why you'd say that about the competition match where i just kind of froze and got beat up, but not the other ones. That one is also 4- 6 months old. What about the competition video? Should I keep on focusing drop seionage and tomoenage or do something else completely?



I agree that I'm not training at the best places. So how do i make the best of it? Do you guys see any thing I do kind of decently or any improvement in my ability?

 

[beepee]

Thycidides I don't really know how to post videos here but these are some links to basic gripping sequences and a throw chain. I hope they give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

Drill them as slowly as they are in the video until you know them well. Then add speed. Then add movement. Circular and linear. Then get your partner to defend themselves at 30% then 60% then 90%. Now add throws back at the start slowly building up in the same way.

Now randori with attack and defence. You now have a plan to take to competition. You have grips you want to get, know how to get them through attack and defence. You also have throws that you can do from that grip and a combination to get your opponent to unbalance themselves.

This is now a plan of action for you. Everyone at any level has had matches in comps where they did not perform. This is nothing to worry about. Simply work on fixing it. In my opinion step 1 is having a plan to implement. As you get better you can develop a plan b to switch to and a plan c for left handed player but I promise you if you start slowly and focus your training things will improve.


Knits. I love it, this is exactly how newaza should be thought in my opinion. My half guard is lacking to be honest so I don't have much to add on that point. Do you ever include tranations from standing in your newaza training, it's something we work quite hard on. Wazari to pin/submission drills? Etc?

 

[Thycidides]

See the problem is both gyms I go to are structured in such a way that I don't get much time to work on my preferred moves but rather the " move of the week".


One gym has a 30 min session twice a week where I can drill my preferred move but that is at the same time the other gym does most of their randori. And half of that 30 min my partner is doing their move.


Thinking about it more getting a good grip isn't hard for me. I do have problems removing their grip entirely though. Are you saying I won't be able to throw someone if they have both hands on me?

Also I do know some throwing sequences the problem is my regular training partners get wise to the sequence im doing and more or less stop it unless I have some big advantage over them. For example I was working a seionage to osotogari combination but most of them figured it out. People I randori with generally try to avoid a fall with everything they have as well.

How often do you get your preferred sequence on your regular training partners that are about your level of experience and your size or bigger when they really resist?

 

[beepee]

See the problem is both gyms I go to are structured in such a way that I don't get much time to work on my preferred moves but rather the " move of the week".


One gym has a 30 min session twice a week where I can drill my preferred move but that is at the same time the other gym does most of their randori. And half of that 30 min my partner is doing their move.


Thinking about it more getting a good grip isn't hard for me. I do have problems removing their grip entirely though. Are you saying I won't be able to throw someone if they have both hands on me?

Also I do know some throwing sequences the problem is my regular training partners get wise to the sequence im doing and more or less stop it unless I have some big advantage over them. For example I was working a seionage to osotogari combination but most of them figured it out. People I randori with generally try to avoid a fall with everything they have as well.

How often do you get your preferred sequence on your regular training partners that are about your level of experience and your size or bigger when they really resist?

Ok 30 minutes is simply not enough time. That is a given. You need to stop looking at randori as a place to win. It is a place to train against resisting opponents. A win in randori is meaningless. You need to use it as a training tool, where you can:
a)improve your fitness
b)improve your movement offensively and defensively
c) improve your awareness of body position and balance
d)practice implementing your plan (as discussed) move, grip, move, balance, throw.

To answer your question I have a number of training partners that are similar ability and size wise and we throw each other regularly. But rarely with anything new or untrained. It is almost always using techniques that are pet techniques to each individual.

There is one thing that I can say 100% accurately. If I enter a competitive Judo match without focusing on what I want to do and having a strategy I will get beaten. It doesn't matter what throws you pick, so long as you are committed to getting your grips, movement, balance breaking and technique. You cannot learn that in a week, I don't believe anyone can. I mean no disrespect to you or your coaches I simply disagree that you can become proficient at Judo training in that way. I will post a video of what I believe is a good Judo training session (others disagree and have done so in the past) Compare it to yours and see what you think?

 

[RJ Green]

honestly, with Judo in the states we have what I call 'the baseball problem'.

the countries with a rich judo tradition start judo young. they have scholastic opportunities and enough participation that the overall skill level is high. as kids get older, the chances they'll play with other kids with similar time and experience is high. by the time they're at a university, they've been playing at a very high level with many like-minded peers and have 15-20 years' experience.

contrast that with judo/bjj here. the majority of folks don't pick that up until their teens/20's. yeah, we've got wrestlers that started as kids, but they're mostly sport-focused and usually too hurt to do much training as adults. the point being, kids in countries with good judo learned judo as children, and there are tons of studies to show that laying a solid foundation in childhood is the best recipe for success.

now, take Baseball. other countries have baseball, other countries can play baseball, but we invented baseball. we are the premiere baseball league. sure, you've got good cuban players, but let's refocus on the Japanese, and allow me to make an analogy:

the best Japanese baseball player is going to be a AAA prospect at best, and very few will actually achieve much success in the MLB.

same goes for Judo. you can be among the best Americans in your weight class, but unless you're considerably bigger and stronger than your opponents, in Japan the odds are you're a mediocre university player at best

 

[Russky]

Also I do know some throwing sequences the problem is my regular training partners get wise to the sequence im doing and more or less stop it unless I have some big advantage over them. For example I was working a seionage to osotogari combination but most of them figured it out. People I randori with generally try to avoid a fall with everything they have as well.

With your partner you can change randori into prearranged practice (yakusoku geiko) where partner instead of resisting tries to offer you opportunities. I have a few partners with whom we do that all the time.

the problem is both gyms I go to are structured in such a way that I don't get much time to work on my preferred moves but rather the " move of the week".

There is no evidence that block practice is better than random practice.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/are-we-drilling-the-right-way-block-vs-random-practice.3005365/

 

[Russky]

contrast that with judo/bjj here. the majority of folks don't pick that up until their teens/20's.

Not exactly true for California. Most of the kids here start early, but majority of them are kids of Japanese/Russian/French/Israeli immigrants.

 

[BKR]

I meant I think doing kata will help me understand the technique and the step by step of throws etc. I didn't have a chance to do kata last Monday, there was no partner for me and the rest of the guys were getting ready for some comp so I just watched instead. It's pretty cool, I would like to give a try.

Have at it, it's another training method. Kata, randori, shiai, lecture, and question and answer.

 

[RJ Green]

Not exactly true for California. Most of the kids here start early, but majority of them are kids of Japanese/Russian/French/Israeli immigrants.

Dude for sure. California might as well be its own country. I'm pretty sure California has the next largest population of Japanese and Koreans outside of Japan and Korea, and Cal actually has some scholastic opportunities.

 

[BKR]

''

How do you teach people to grip? Let's say I was to walk into you judo club. What would you have me doing with my grips?

That's a large subject, and if you instructor is not teaching you, he should be. I see somebody posted some videos, which is good.

I'd show you how and where to grip the jacket at sleeve and lapel properly, relative to height of your uke, how to hold your arms and hand to form a proper frame. I'd introduce the concept of sleeve control, and ai yotsu versus kenka yotsu. You would work on various drills regarding those things.

But before that, I'd show you proper/correct posture and how to move, and the concepts attached to those. You are an adult, so I assume you'd have no problem with that sort of approach. Then there are drills for those sorts of things as well.

Next, I would link the gripping and posture/movement to a throw. I'd have to evaluate your ability along the way, and that would determine the types of drills you would do, including throwing drills.

If you are typical, you would show some improvement with a cooperative uke pretty quickly.

Things get more complex over time depending on your individual progress.

Judging from how you move in the videos (you were better in the competition than in the older training video), I'd also give you some agility drills to do, and hope you would buy yourself an agility ladder and some cones to work on your own.

I asked one of my coaches about that today and he said my problem wasn't gripping as much as not being able to read my opponent in randori and trying too hard to do my own technique rather than reacting to my opponent's movement . He said I just need to spend more time with resisting opponents and to randori more.

It's good to spend time in randori with resisting training partners. Judo is a jacket-wrestling combat sport, so how you grip the jacket is important. I'm not advocating you go full-blown grip-fighting crazy, but just learn how and where to hold the jacket, and how to use it to manipulate your opponents posture. These are relatively simple things to do at a basic level, but you lack them as far as I can tell.

Reacting to your opponents movement or action is one concept in combat sport, or for that matter in real combat. But there are others as well. Keeping and maintaining the initiative is also a very important concept for you to understand and try to implement. If you want to be successful in Judo competition (or randori), you will need to learn how to get and keep the initiative. Initiative moves back and forth in a match (or randori), and eventually you learn to work in both modes.

You might post some video of you doing uchi komi and nage komi. If you cannot competently throw a moving, compliant (not jumping) uke, that is another root cause of your performance in randori/shiai. There are basic movements used in Judo to position yourself and uke for a throw (or any technique for that matter). You have to learn those, drill them, and then try them in randori.

Also its kind of odd you think im look scared in that sparring video. I can see why you'd say that about the competition match where i just kind of froze and got beat up, but not the other ones. That one is also 4- 6 months old. What about the competition video? Should I keep on focusing drop seionage and tomoenage or do something else completely?

No, bent over posture, stiff, hesitant movement, (defensive) look like "scared" to me. The guy you were working with was obviously being careful with you. You looked better in the comp video.

You keep focusing on a particular throw. That's not, IMO, the solution to the problem you are working on.

Seoi Nage is fine, I'd skip on the Tomoe Nage for now. Sacrifice throws are higher level throws. You need to learn how to turn in or away properly for a normal (generally forward) throw.

I suggest Tsurikomi Goshi, as it works well with the basic tsurikomi action. Most forward throws in Judo use the same basic footwork. Get that down, or IME you will continue to struggle.

Take a look at these videos...
Kumi Kata

Tai Sabaki
[video]
Tai Sabaki
[video]
Nage Waza concepts
[video]

Seoi Nage...a little more advanced, but not much.
[video]

 

[BKR]

See the problem is both gyms I go to are structured in such a way that I don't get much time to work on my preferred moves but rather the " move of the week".


One gym has a 30 min session twice a week where I can drill my preferred move but that is at the same time the other gym does most of their randori. And half of that 30 min my partner is doing their move.


Thinking about it more getting a good grip isn't hard for me. I do have problems removing their grip entirely though. Are you saying I won't be able to throw someone if they have both hands on me?

Also I do know some throwing sequences the problem is my regular training partners get wise to the sequence im doing and more or less stop it unless I have some big advantage over them. For example I was working a seionage to osotogari combination but most of them figured it out. People I randori with generally try to avoid a fall with everything they have as well.

How often do you get your preferred sequence on your regular training partners that are about your level of experience and your size or bigger when they really resist?

If you are not drilling your "moves" outside of randori with resisting training partners, you are going to be frustrated for a long time.

You have to drill stuff with a cooperative uke at first. Just going to randori, especially if they are all resisting fully, is not optimal.

Try to find a partner who will let you work on a particular pattern of grip/move/throw without countering or avoiding you. You can add in specific reactions of uke to your attack, then you react to that, etc.

 

[Thycidides]

Ok there seems to be a misunderstanding here... I'm aware my coaches and sparring partners are not ideal. I'd be better served training one or two sequences leading to a throw rather than a different move every class. But for some reason the idea behind most American judo pedagogy seems to be to get people familiar with a broad range of moves and not focus on one sequence or tokiwaza until very late.



Interestingly a lot what BKR is suggesting and how he describes teaching beginners is more or less what ive been doing at both gyms. The agility ladder is something i've used but i hadn't considered buying one. The big difference is that im being encouraged to use footsweeps to set up throws rather than grips.

Considering I'm going to be taught them no matter what it makes sense to incorporate a foot sweep into my game plan.

In any case I can throw complaint partners while moving around and people tell me I have a good sieonage. No one in my main club or in the one i just joined considers me a beginner, though even my coaches are noobs compared to some Japanese or French. USA judo is not very good compared to those countries but I'm not sure how relevant that is to me.

I should say that for tha past year and a half I mostly focus on BJJ and until a couple months ago was only doing 2 hours of judo a week. So my tachiwaza is not so good but i did sweep a brown belt to mount and gi choke a green belt at judo practice today.

Here's me winning a no gi match from last September... its why i keep mentioning the sacrifice throws, they work in bjj context. But in this match I got a takedown right before the camera was rolling.




The other times I won in BJJ I pulled half guard and swept to top. I find It really stupid and funny that strategy worked.

 

[Thycidides]

People bitch that newaza is taught haphazardly in judo (which it mostly is). Decided to do something about that. Spent the last six weeks teaching interlocking attacks and turnovers from turtle. Nice to see some of them actually landing these things in randori.

Not sure if we should cover half guard or guard first. They've at least seen the guard stuff before (and if show the Fallon roll, it will tee up with turtle turnovers and a few other things) but the half guard game is "clamp legs, wait". Any ideas?

I'm not sure if half guard works well in Judo competion, as I got easily passed and pinned from there, but what I like to do In bjj is sit up into a single leg/ ko soto gake and sweep. Another option is to take the back either by rolling under them or using the underhook . You can also get a kimura from there too.

 

[RJ Green]

I'm not sure if half guard works well in Judo competion, as I got easily passed and pinned from there, but what I like to do In bjj is sit up into a single leg/ ko soto gake and sweep. Another option is to take the back either by rolling under them or using the underhook . You can also get a kimura from there too.

dude no offense but after watching your competition videos you're not proficient enough to decide what does or doesn't work.