Judo Official Judo Thread

[Thycidides]

dude no offense but after watching your competition videos you're not proficient enough to decide what does or doesn't work.

Ironically if that is the case I should be content with doing move of the week trusting that id get better training that way and not asking for other opinions.

 

[Thycidides]

Speaking of different opinions the only points that are new or different from what hear from my coaches is that I should spend more time on coordination and general athletic training, and focus more griping to set up throws and genrata kuzushi instead of using ashi waza.

RJ Green mentioned in another thread ashi waza is used by some high level players while others use grips. So it sounds like there is some thought behind my instruction and not some bullshit taught because noobs can do it without getting hurt.


Regarding the athleticism I generally do an hour long conditioning/ calisthenics routine Saturdays. I am trying to do more but I go to BJJ 6 hours a week and judo 4-5. This takes toll on my body. I'm curious as how long the students you guys teach train?

Also what is the standard I am being measured to? I notice that by the standard of my classmates in BJJ and judo I'm pretty good, but by the standards of tournament winning I underperform. Last BJJ tournament I went 2-3 in the beginner/ white belt divisions and 2016 was the first time I trained either more than 3 hours a week for a full 12 month period. I go back and forth In my mind as to whether I am meeting my owns standards or not.

 

[BKR]

Ok there seems to be a misunderstanding here... I'm aware my coaches and sparring partners are not ideal. I'd be better served training one or two sequences leading to a throw rather than a different move every class. But for some reason the idea behind most American judo pedagogy seems to be to get people familiar with a broad range of moves and not focus on one sequence or tokiwaza until very late.

I don't really know if they are ideal or not. Few things in life are ideal... What you can change is your understanding of how to train most effectively, and then change your training best you can to match that.

Post video of you throwing people. I mean in practice/drilling, obviously you don't throw anybody in randori very often.

If you cannot engage in good posture and movement, and throw effectively with a cooperative uke, then your chances of success against a resisting opponent are slim to none.

Interestingly a lot what BKR is suggesting and how he describes teaching beginners is more or less what ive been doing at both gyms. The agility ladder is something i've used but i hadn't considered buying one. The big difference is that im being encouraged to use footsweeps to set up throws rather than grips.

Footsweeps and other ashi waza are wonderful for "setting up throws". You should be learning them, for sure. Your coaches are not doing you a disservice by focusing on them. Good gripping (kumi kata) is ESSENTIAL to being able to execute a throw. I do not mean world-class level grip fighting, either. Did you look at the video I posted from Tokai on kumi kata?

Gripping can be used to "set up throws", but it's really part of the overall process, not stand-alone

Considering I'm going to be taught them no matter what it makes sense to incorporate a foot sweep into my game plan.

I love it when beginners talk about a "game plan". Your game plan should be to learn how to stand up, maintain migi or hidari shizentai, keep your head up, learn how and where to grip the jacket, and how to move and throw well before you start worrying about a "game plan".

In any case I can throw complaint partners while moving around and people tell me I have a good sieonage. No one in my main club or in the one i just joined considers me a beginner, though even my coaches are noobs compared to some Japanese or French. USA judo is not very good compared to those countries but I'm not sure how relevant that is to me.

OK, you are a novice, if you prefer...

I'm an American, BTW, but train in Canada.

Post video of yourself moving around and throwing people.

I should say that for tha past year and a half I mostly focus on BJJ and until a couple months ago was only doing 2 hours of judo a week. So my tachiwaza is not so good but i did sweep a brown belt to mount and gi choke a green belt at judo practice today.

I do BJJ and can sweep and mount and control and submit people too.... BFD...and I get the same done to me, as well. BFD.

Here's me winning a no gi match from last September... its why i keep mentioning the sacrifice throws, they work in bjj context. But in this match I got a take-down right before the camera was rolling.




The other times I won in BJJ I pulled half guard and swept to top. I find It really stupid and funny that strategy worked.

Congratulations !

 

[BKR]

I'm not sure if half guard works well in Judo competion, as I got easily passed and pinned from there, but what I like to do In bjj is sit up into a single leg/ ko soto gake and sweep. Another option is to take the back either by rolling under them or using the underhook . You can also get a kimura from there too.

Any serious competition judoka will have a well drilled sequence for passing half guard, in a Judo context. It's a huge opportunity to win a match when a guy decides he wants to dry-hump you leg to stall out and get stood up.

Leg humping is not that effective if the guy on top knows what he is doing. My BJJ coach doesn't advocate the clamped on half guard very much.

Not that it never works, LOL!

 

[BKR]

Ironically if that is the case I should be content with doing move of the week trusting that id get better training that way and not asking for other opinions.

I don't think you know what irony is...

Asking for other opinions is a fine thing to do.

Keep on asking.

You may not like (or understand) the answers, though.

 

[BKR]

Speaking of different opinions the only points that are new or different from what hear from my coaches is that I should spend more time on coordination and general athletic training, and focus more griping to set up throws and generate kuzushi instead of using ashi waza.

Conditioning and agility, balance, coordination, speed (ABCS) is critical to success at combat sports. You posted video of yourself, and I/we commented based on what we saw. You showed more coordination on the ground in your no-gi comp video, and looked a lot better than you did in the Judo videos. Which makes sense if you have been focusing on BJJ for a while.

I'd also suggest reading comprehension training on your part.

In standup,you do not appear to be anywhere near ready to focus on gripping. Read what I wrote again in earlier posts regarding grip, posture, movement.

RJ Green mentioned in another thread ashi waza is used by some high level players while others use grips. So it sounds like there is some thought behind my instruction and not some bullshit taught because noobs can do it without getting hurt.

IME, high level judoka use combination of gripping, movement, posture, ashi waza, and any advantage in physical attributes they have. They are hyper-conditioned machines...

Nobody said there is not thought behind your instruction. Ashi waza are very important in Judo. Ashi waza comprise the majority of Judo throwing techniques. We are relying on your description of how you train, and the video you posted.

Regarding the athleticism I generally do an hour long conditioning/ calisthenics routine Saturdays. I am trying to do more but I go to BJJ 6 hours a week and judo 4-5. This takes toll on my body. I'm curious as how long the students you guys teach train?

How old are you? I can understand how 10 hours a week of training would take a toll on your body, as you look to be at least mid-20s. One hour on Saturday is better than nothing, however, it's more of a maintenance routine.

I teach teenagers and adults. The minimum training is 4 hours of Judo a week. The competitors train more than that, obviously, including physical conditioning outside of Judo class, and travel to training with other dojo. Typically, teenagers who are serious about moving into elite level competition (15-16-17 year olds) will be doing Judo 5 times a week, plus conditioning is extra time. As they get older, that time at judo and conditioning increases.

For Judo alone, if you want to make good progress, you should be getting in at least 6 hours a week. 3 sessions of 2 hours each. BJJ does count for groundwork training towards your Judo total, but won't help your throwing any.

Also what is the standard I am being measured to? I notice that by the standard of my classmates in BJJ and judo I'm pretty good, but by the standards of tournament winning I underperform. Last BJJ tournament I went 2-3 in the beginner/ white belt divisions and 2016 was the first time I trained either more than 3 hours a week for a full 12 month period. I go back and forth In my mind as to whether I am meeting my owns standards or not.

The standard is the two video you posted of you doing Judo. Fuck tournaments, you do not appear to be able to do basic Judo very well.

Prove me wrong and post video of you normal training.

If you want advice, I and others here don't mind helping out. But I'm not going to mince words about it.

 

[Kbits]

Knits. I love it, this is exactly how newaza should be thought in my opinion. My half guard is lacking to be honest so I don't have much to add on that point. Do you ever include tranations from standing in your newaza training, it's something we work quite hard on. Wazari to pin/submission drills? Etc?

Damn right I do. Just like this

 

[RJ Green]

you should never rest on your laurels. unless you're somewhere like Marcelos or ATOS being better than everyone in your gym means you're just a big fish in a small pond.

if you'd like another analogy, you're basically asking why you don't understand calculus when we're telling you that you can barely add, let alone multiply.

 

[Kbits]

I'm not sure if half guard works well in Judo competion, as I got easily passed and pinned from there, but what I like to do In bjj is sit up into a single leg/ ko soto gake and sweep. Another option is to take the back either by rolling under them or using the underhook . You can also get a kimura from there too.

Actually, half guard and butterfly guard are probably the two most important guards in judo. (Half guard both top and bottom: butterfly, mostly top. It's used as a turtle breaker among other things)

Butterfly guard hooks are very often used to enact turnovers etc. In fact, that thing you see MG doing (sitting on his ass) is probably something that comes from judo.

 

[Thycidides]

I



How old are you? I can understand how 10 hours a week of training would take a toll on your body, as you look to be at least mid-20s. One hour on Saturday is better than nothing, however, it's more of a maintenance routine.

I teach teenagers and adults. The minimum training is 4 hours of Judo a week. The competitors train more than that, obviously, including physical conditioning outside of Judo class, and travel to training with other dojo. Typically, teenagers who are serious about moving into elite level competition (15-16-17 year olds) will be doing Judo 5 times a week, plus conditioning is extra time. As they get older, that time at judo and conditioning increases.

For Judo alone, if you want to make good progress, you should be getting in at least 6 hours a week. 3 sessions of 2 hours each. BJJ does count for groundwork training towards your Judo total, but won't help your throwing any.



The standard is the two video you posted of you doing Judo. Fuck tournaments, you do not appear to be able to do basic Judo very well.

Prove me wrong and post video of you normal training.

If you want advice, I and others here don't mind helping out. But I'm not going to mince words about it.

I'm 26. And did watch those kumi kata videos. I've been shown that that but not really gone over in depth. But now you say griping might too advanced for me so it probably isn't a big concern I don't do more of it. And your snarky comment about a game plan is similar to what my judo coaches have told me when I made a similar remark to them.

Now we are getting somewhere and I think we understand each other. Clearly we had a failure to communicate before as there I a big change in your tone in the last post of yours to this one. I think you read an adversarial tone in my messages that wasn't there and you think I am being uppity...

But really I know I am pretty bad at judo and don't really disagree with your assessment of my ability.

You mentioned I might not be getting good instruction. Now that Ive explained more about it and explained I spend most of my time on BJJ what do you think? I kind of feel like I should ask YOU for a video of you teaching. So there is no misunderstanding.

I've actually posted 5 videos of myself grappling and no one else has reciprocated...

 

[Thycidides]

if you'd like another analogy, you're basically asking why you don't understand calculus when we're telling you that you can barely add, let alone multiply.

And you guys are telling me different things. Beepee did mention a game plan, which BKR said was too advanced for me. Russky is saying all I need is reps and move of the week is fine but other of you seem to disagree.

Some of the guys at the club I recently joined are winning local tournaments. Also they are not that better than me which is why I brought up beating them in ne waza.

To continue the analogy I don't have to know how to multiply if I'm in third grade. Especially if I can read at a 5th grade level and I'm clever enough to know the reading teacher is better than math teacher and has masters.

 

[Kbits]

I've actually posted 5 videos of myself grappling and no one else has reciprocated...

I get you're upset. It's difficult to know who to listen to. But heaps of guys have posted video here before. It ain't no thing but a silly string.

Here - training video with my IJF patch and name on the back



Me and Bluesbreaker training (he's graded up since this and I've torn my ACL, so not much judo for me till I fix it)



Do you need a comp video (I can probably find one) or have I established bona-fides?

I don't really know who you are...but I know who BKR is. I trust BKRs opinion. (BKR, how's my seio? Too high, right?)

Look...we've all been in sub-optimal clubs. We've *all* tried to do what you're doing. Are you willing to listen to experience or do you want to butt your head against the wall? The solution/s to your problem are pretty simple.

 

[Kbits]

I teach teenagers and adults. The minimum training is 4 hours of Judo a week. The competitors train more than that, obviously, including physical conditioning outside of Judo class, and travel to training with other dojo. Typically, teenagers who are serious about moving into elite level competition (15-16-17 year olds) will be doing Judo 5 times a week, plus conditioning is extra time. As they get older, that time at judo and conditioning increases.

For Judo alone, if you want to make good progress, you should be getting in at least 6 hours a week. 3 sessions of 2 hours each.

This has been my experience also. 3 x 2hrs a week is a good number. I know when we were preparing for nationals, we did 3 x 2.5hrs, plus I did a little bit of BJJ on the side (1-2hrs a week) and some extra conditioning (maybe 1.5hrs). Of course, this is nothing compared to what they do in japan (2-a-days, 6 days a week. Some of those kids are getting 15-20hrs of judo in a week).

Perhaps Thycidides could focus on upping his judo and reducing his BJJ for a while? I suspect judo newaza would have a 'protective' effect on his groundskill (ie: they won't get worse / will be maintained), while more tachiwaza training (perhaps concurrently at another club or two, if hours are an issue?) could really help.

Failing that, I might have a way he can have his cake and eat it.

 

[BKR]

Damn right I do. Just like this

Transitions are huge, we drill them a lot. In fact, you have to work out common scenarios, rank them on how frequently they occur, and drill responses to them methodically and regularly. That would include specific responses to specific opponents if training at high enough level.

 

[BKR]

I'm 26. And did watch those kumi kata videos. I've been shown that that but not really gone over in depth. But now you say griping might too advanced for me so it probably isn't a big concern I don't do more of it. And your snarky comment about a game plan is similar to what my judo coaches have told me when I made a similar remark to them.

Snarky, LOl, sorry you are such a delicate flower. I'm spending a considerable amount of time sharing with you, as are others.

Being shown something and not drilling it regularly, you might as well not have been shown.

Keep your lapel grip level or slightly higher than your own shoulder.

Keep uke hand off of your lapel (sleeve control, keep his hand in your half of the space between you).

When you do uchikomi, nagekomi, or other drills, start off with sleeve control. Hold uke sleeve between the elbow and the end of the sleeve, get a double grip (no slack between his forearm and you hand). Normally you get sleeve control, then move to the lapel grip in ai yotsu gripping situation.

If you do not have sleeve control, maintain the double grip (no slack) between forearm and your grip, and grip between his elbow and sleeve opening, usually closer to the sleeve opening is preferred.

Kenka yotsu (left vs right), inside lapel control first, then sleeve control, or, double lapel, pull down with the farside grip on his lapel (on collar bone, not mid chest) and work from there until you can get his far sleeve.

Reading comprehension, please. Go back and re-read what I wrote in regard to grip fighting. The fundamentals are not too advanced for you, but you have other technical issues that will hold you back as well, as have been noted multiple times. What I outlined above are fundamentals.

Now we are getting somewhere and I think we understand each other. Clearly we had a failure to communicate before as there I a big change in your tone in the last post of yours to this one. I think you read an adversarial tone in my messages that wasn't there and you think I am being uppity...

Let me be clear. Fuck my tone, Muffin. You had a failure of reading comprehension, no doubt aided by the fact that I'm not trying to write a fucking paper for a peer-reviewed journal, and no doubt aided by your lack of understanding of a large part of the topic, and no doubt aided by the fact that I'm writing about something that is best taught in person, with face-to-face verbal and tactile feedback.

But keep on complaining, it's OK.

But really I know I am pretty bad at judo and don't really disagree with your assessment of my ability.

You mentioned I might not be getting good instruction. Now that Ive explained more about it and explained I spend most of my time on BJJ what do you think? I kind of feel like I should ask YOU for a video of you teaching. So there is no misunderstanding.

I can only go by what you say about your instruction. The more you write, the more I suspect it's you, not your instructors. In any case, that doesn't really matter. If you want to consider my advice/analysis, feel free to do so, or reject it, or whatever proportion makes sense to you.

You are better at BJJ than Judo, judging from your one video of BJJ (no gi) I watched. You are doing mostly standard, basic stuff, which is fine. That could be a product of the fact that groundwork is easier to pick up than standing, in general, and also that BJJ instruction is pretty standardized, and is generally taught in flow/action reaction sequences that are also fairly standardized. BJJ does not require as much coordination, in general, as throwing in Judo because of the fact you are laying on the ground mostly in BJJ. Standing has a much steeper learning curve.

I've actually posted 5 videos of myself grappling and no one else has reciprocated...[/QUOTE]

You are the one asking the questions and wanting the free (to you) advice...

You want to see a 54 year old man with 35 years of training and competing, and teaching/coaching ? Most of my competition was never recorded, and posting it would prove or disprove nothing. If I'm full of shit, then there are multiple people on this board who will call me on it who are qualified to do so.

 

[BKR]

I get you're upset. It's difficult to know who to listen to. But heaps of guys have posted video here before. It ain't no thing but a silly string.

Here - training video with my IJF patch and name on the back



Me and Bluesbreaker training (he's graded up since this and I've torn my ACL, so not much judo for me till I fix it)



Do you need a comp video (I can probably find one) or have I established bona-fides?

I don't really know who you are...but I know who BKR is. I trust BKRs opinion. (BKR, how's my seio? Too high, right?)

Look...we've all been in sub-optimal clubs. We've *all* tried to do what you're doing. Are you willing to listen to experience or do you want to butt your head against the wall? The solution/s to your problem are pretty simple.

It's OK. Keep your head up all the time (look at the wall or horizon). You could get a little lower, but if the knee is still bothering you, you can work back to that.

Try not to "bow" toward your uke when doing the "bounce" type action-reaction movement. Lower your weight instead by bending your knees. I call it "the bob".

Do you work on circular entries (circle to lapel hand?), and left (lapel side) Ippon Seoi Nage as well?

You were looking at the floor in you grip-move-throw sequence in the first video as well.

Where the head goes, the body tends to follow, if you get my drift...

 

[Kbits]

Transitions are huge, we drill them a lot. In fact, you have to work out common scenarios, rank them on how frequently they occur, and drill responses to them methodically and regularly. That would include specific responses to specific opponents if training at high enough level.

I'm trying to figure out more transitions from the 1 up / 1 down (I like to start them in newaza from this position).

Do you have any other ideas on this theme?



The one's that I've tried are

• Hiza guruma like footsweep into [mune gatame most readily]
• Uchimata [lots of stuff here]
• Roll down into N&S (by stepping back in a semi circle) [mostly pins here]
• Kouchi gari [guard pass to kesa]
• Kosoto gari
• Tani otoshi (if they turtle / you attack from rear)

Basically, any transitions you can suggest I review from 1 up / 1 down. I want to make them do it as slow nagekomi for warmups....and then at the end as a timed thing

 

[BKR]

This has been my experience also. 3 x 2hrs a week is a good number. I know when we were preparing for nationals, we did 3 x 2.5hrs, plus I did a little bit of BJJ on the side (1-2hrs a week) and some extra conditioning (maybe 1.5hrs). Of course, this is nothing compared to what they do in japan (2-a-days, 6 days a week. Some of those kids are getting 15-20hrs of judo in a week).

Perhaps Thycidides could focus on upping his judo and reducing his BJJ for a while? I suspect judo newaza would have a 'protective' effect on his groundskill (ie: they won't get worse / will be maintained), while more tachiwaza training (perhaps concurrently at another club or two, if hours are an issue?) could really help.

Failing that, I might have a way he can have his cake and eat it.

Well, he wrote he had focused on BJJ for a couple of years, and if true, that shows.

If he does not spend more time on Judo (fundamentals linked to throwing), he isn't going to get much better at throwing.

It would depend on how much ne waza they do at his Judo club(s). Maintenance for BJJ would be once or twice a week, plus 3 times a week for Judo.

Personally, for me, I could do twice a week or even once a week Judo, and 2-3 times a week BJJ and be oK, but I'm already a black belt.

 

[Kbits]

It's OK. Keep your head up all the time (look at the wall or horizon). You could get a little lower, but if the knee is still bothering you, you can work back to that.

Try not to "bow" toward your uke when doing the "bounce" type action-reaction movement. Lower your weight instead by bending your knees. I call it "the bob".

Do you work on circular entries (circle to lapel hand?), and left (lapel side) Ippon Seoi Nage as well?

You were looking at the floor in you grip-move-throw sequence in the first video as well.

Where the head goes, the body tends to follow, if you get my drift...

My knees have always been shitty...so knee bending is a novel notion to me

Yes on the circling entries on seoi...though to be honest with you, seoi is not my thing. I much prefer koshiwaza (if I'm doing big turning throws). Eg:



I was practicing "leaping in" on these (I generally don't exaggerated my steps like that...but I wanted to try leaping in). I also shanked the second one (lost him, had to do a few shuffle steps backwards). It seems I am destined to fuck up best when there's a camera on me.

Any comments or feedback on the hip throws other than 'do them better'?

PS: This is what I was *trying* to do....

 

[BKR]

I'm trying to figure out more transitions from the 1 up / 1 down (I like to start them in newaza from this position).

Do you have any other ideas on this theme?



The one's that I've tried are

• Hiza guruma like footsweep into [mune gatame most readily]
• Uchimata [lots of stuff here]
• Roll down into N&S (by stepping back in a semi circle) [mostly pins here]
• Kouchi gari [guard pass to kesa]
• Kosoto gari
• Tani otoshi (if they turtle / you attack from rear)

Basically, any transitions you can suggest I review from 1 up / 1 down. I want to make them do it as slow nagekomi for warmups....and then at the end as a timed thing

Throwing with uke on knees is a great way to intro beginners to being "thrown", as well as training more realistically for beginners/novices (throw transition to ground right away). They can do ukemi from a low elevation, it's much easier for tori to control uke, and thus a lot safer. Win, Win, Win in my book. Especially if you do not have a sprung floor and/or crash pads.

In regards to higher level (as in what you posted in the video), I honestly do not see a lot of throw from knees opportunities anymore. All the stuff in the video you posted is SOP and well demonstrated. However, I put that sort of thing fairly low on the drilling priority, due to the low frequency of occurrence (again, IME). Does it need to be done, yes, a whole fuckton, maybe not so much.

I'd put integrating ashi waza with grip-move-throw sequences, passing ashi garami (half guard), block/dodge/counter stuff, turtle turns and transitions from failed throws higher on the list.

I train my guys to go to open guard rather than sit there on their knees or in kyoshi open/closed position...