Nog vs Sergei 18 years ago

[Jewish Lightning]

I dont say he wouldnt, categorically.

Im saying that Ngannou's physicality and improved wrestling, as well as Gané's movility and size, would make very hard for Nog to complete his TDs.
Particularly from the clinch, yes I think the chances are very slim that he gets an advantageous hold in the clinch in the first place, and secondly, that he is able to complete a TD from there in a cage, which is where FrancisGane fight.

I think many people on this thread just dont understand how much physicality makes a difference in fighting. Somehow they acknowledge 30-40lbs are a huge deal at any weightclass when both opponents are fairly skilled, but suddenly between a fit 225lber and a fit 260lber it doesnt matter at all.
It does matter. And Ngannou and Gane, apart from superior physical specimens, aren't clueless skillwise neither.

Prime Big Nog took down Fedor and Barnett. Two guys way stronger and more physical in the clinch than Gane, a French kickboxer with 4 years of training who is a weaker grappler than both Fedor and Barnett. Keep shilling though.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Gane was more instigating clinches as a result of Frank coming forward to close the distance on him rather than trying to pressure forward into the clinch.

Yea and Nog would do the same lol

 

[pankrat]

Prime Big Nog took down Fedor and Barnett. Two guys way stronger and more physical in the clinch than Gane, a French kickboxer with 4 years of training who is a weaker grappler than both Fedor and Barnett. Keep shilling though.

Toma tu galleta, tontín

 

[Natural Order]

I think with Frank the problem is the amount on punishment you have to take to try and get close to him. I think the historical fighters that would do well against him are ones that can pick him off from the outside. Closing the distance on him seems like a rough time.

Well sure, that's clearly a problem for anybody....but to suggest they never saw the abilities or size of either Gane or Ngannou is pretty silly imo.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Yea and Nog would do the same lol

He doesn't have the speed to pick Frank apart at range like Gane was though to force Frank to press forward faster to try and close the distance on him. If Frank hadn't started moving forward Gane would likely have happily picked him apart for 5 rounds.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Well sure, that's clearly a problem for anybody....but to suggest they never saw the abilities or size of either Gane or Ngannou is pretty silly imo.

I'm not sure he fought anyone with the mobility of Gane or someone with the power of Frank (though he certainly fought powerful guys the power of Frank is something else), I don't think anyone is disputing that he fought really high level guys throughout his career, I just find it odd that anyone can say with a massive amount of certainty how a fight between two very high level guys from different eras would go.

I'm sure if modern day Frank and prime Nog fought each other they'd both train their asses off knowing that they're facing an excellent opponent they could easily lose to.

 

[Natural Order]

I dont say he wouldnt, categorically.

Im saying that Ngannou's physicality and improved wrestling, as well as Gané's movility and size, would make very hard for Nog to complete his TDs.
Particularly from the clinch, yes I think the chances are very slim that he gets an advantageous hold in the clinch in the first place, and secondly, that he is able to complete a TD from there in a cage, which is where FrancisGane fight.

I think many people on this thread just dont understand how much physicality makes a difference in fighting. Somehow they acknowledge 30-40lbs are a huge deal at any weightclass when both opponents are fairly skilled, but suddenly between a fit 225lber and a fit 260lber it doesnt matter at all.
It does matter. And Ngannou and Gane, apart from superior physical specimens, aren't clueless skillwise neither.

This is all speculative nonsense based on recency bias. You're highly overrating modern sizes and abilities at HW. Diminishing returns is a real things and you know that, particularly at HW. Prime Nog would have been fine in beating either of these guys.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Toma tu galleta, tontín

That's what I thought shill. I want those dishes shiny.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

This is all speculative nonsense based on recency bias. You're highly overrating modern sizes and abilities at HW. Diminishing returns is a real things and you know that, particularly at HW. Prime Nog would have been fine in beating either of these guys.

Great post.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

He doesn't have the speed to pick Frank apart at range like Gane was though to force Frank to press forward faster to try and close the distance on him. If Frank hadn't started moving forward Gane would likely have happily picked him apart for 5 rounds.

Nog took down Fedor has was a who lot faster and stronger than Gane and much better in the clinch. And I love Gane. He has potential but your shilling is unreasonable. Also took down Barnett who was a much stronger grappler than Gane and much stronger in the clinch. The thought that a French kick boxer with 3.5 years of training and 10 fights was impossible for Nog to take down based on magical movement that no one else ever had is speculative, delusional, shill talk.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Nog took down Fedor has was a who lot faster and stronger than Gane and much better in the clinch. And I love Gane. He has potential but your shilling is unreasonable. Also took down Barnett who was a much stronger grappler than Gane and much stronger in the clinch. The thought that a French kick boxer with 3.5 years of training and 10 fights was impossible for Nog to take down based on magical movement that no one else ever had is speculative, delusional, shill talk.

I don't think you know what shilling is.

In terms of Gane's pure movement his speed of foot movement is faster than Fedor was. Fedor could throw as fast and could throw harder, that's true.

 

[Jewish Lightning]

I don't think you know what shilling is.

In terms of Gane's pure movement his speed of foot movement is faster than Fedor was. Fedor could throw as fast and could throw harder, that's true.

Lol Fedor is the fastest HW ever. Gane is agile but not nearly as fast in terms hand speed and transitional speed from striking to grappling. He isn't even faster than Mirko was.

 

[pankrat]

This is all speculative nonsense based on recency bias. You're highly overrating modern sizes and abilities at HW. Diminishing returns is a real things and you know that, particularly at HW. Prime Nog would have been fine in beating either of these guys.

It's all speculative nosense, yours as much as mine

I dont get the concept "diminishing returns" honestly, I guess due to a language barrier.

Its your opinion, mate. I think Nog - and all the guys Nog beat at the moment Nog beat them - would have a very hard time dealing with Ngannou and Gané in a cage, and the gap in physicality would have a lot to do with it.

 

[HHJ]

It's all speculative nosense, yours as much as mine

I dont get the concept "diminishing returns" honestly, I guess due to a language barrier.

Its your opinion, mate. I think Nog - and all the guys Nog beat at the moment Nog beat them - would have a very hard time dealing with Ngannou and Gané in a cage, and the gap in physicality would have a lot to do with it.

Diminishing returns as a concept example: Someone who cuts alot of weight may have benefits but also major drawbacks. Jorge Masvidal said taking hits hurt much worse when he cut to 155.

 

[pankrat]

Its one year latter but that year clearly makes a significant difference, its a year were Mirko was focused strongly on MMA training where as really by the Wand/Saku fights MMA was still a sideline. You look at say the Herring fight and I think you can see he's made very significant changes.

Really when your talking about takedown defence as well like any other defence I think it depends rather on how aggerssive a fighter is, Mirko I think did tend to take risks in terms of not staying THAT distant to someone so he could land on them with power and also of course that he threw a lot of high powered kicks.

I would say were Mirko really shone was actually in countering double leg atempts, he had the speed to get his legs back in a sprall that very few fighters today try and atempt. To actually get hold of his legs at all was not nearly as easy were as a lot of modern fighters there defence is backing up to the cage to fight off the clinch and single legs.

Even someone like Bladyes who is capable of a good double leg shot I think holds back on them because ground control for him is more attrictional(trealistically he was never likely to sub someone like Lewis unless Derrick was already badly gassed or beaten up) , his cardio maybe isnt as good as Nogs and he's more afraid of getting reversed.

How much of a threat do you thnk Herring would be to Ngannou? Do you consider him a bigger threat than Blaydes and would expose his TDD? I dont think so.
Herring btw definitely doesnt meet your theory here:

I think that meant Pride was very focused on finding elite talent, you had some native guys who got by on pro wrestling or judo popularity but mostly it was elite fighters that filled up the cards. If they had a choice between say going after Mark Hunt or going after a dozen okish guys to fill up cards they went for Mark Hunt.

Its a mistake in MMA to think that depth of talent pool = better guys at the top, in other sports that might often be true but MMA is about picking out the best talent from other sports. The reality is those dozen okish guys most likely none of them ever became as good as Hunt.

Do you think Herring was such an elite talent? A talent that would stand out in todays landscape? I dont think so, rather the opposite.

You dismiss the Wand fight in 2002 for being very early, the Kongo in 2007 fight not sure why, I guess its too late.
What period of time is legit for you to be considered.

The Yoshida fight in 2006 also shows lot of flaws in Mirko's anti grappling game in my opinion. Of course Mirko still finished a guy who would be undersized at LHW and didnt have much of a toolbox to close the gap and get in the clinch.
I think Yoshida would have much harder time to get Gané or Ngannou in the kind of grappling exchanges he got Mirko.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Lol Fedor is the fastest HW ever. Gane is agile but not nearly as fast in terms hand speed and transitional speed from striking to grappling. He isn't even faster than Mirko was.

Agility was what I was referring to though.

 

[pankrat]

Diminishing returns as a concept example: Someone who cuts alot of weight may have benefits but also major drawbacks. Jorge Masvidal said taking hits hurt much worse when he cut to 155.

Ah ok, thanks.

I dont think it applies in this case. These guys are not making pre-fight big weight cuts.

Nogueira at 225-230lbs was in peak shape.
Ngannou 30lbs heavier is in his peak shape as well, and Gane not far from that.
Yeah, you have guys back in the day as heavy or heavier, but how they did move? how skilled they were? Not as Ngannou or Gané, not even close really imo

 

[Jewish Lightning]

Agility was what I was referring to though.

Yea Fedor wasn't agile at all.

 

[HHJ]

Ah ok, thanks.

I dont think it applies in this case. These guys are not making pre-fight big weight cuts.

Nogueira at 225-230lbs was in peak shape.
Ngannou 30lbs heavier is in his peak shape as well, and Gane not far from that.
Yeah, you have guys back in the day as heavy or heavier, but how they did move? how skilled they were? Not as Ngannou or Gané, not even close really imo

Yeah I mean there is no limit for the hws to need to make cuts in pride unless you were absolutley massive.

The guys in UFC doing it were probably guys like Barnett and Sylvia,but i doubt it was "extreme"

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Yea Fedor wasn't agile at all.

He wasn't fleet of foot in the same way that Gane was with the lateral movement. He was a different style of fighter.