New STAR WARS Trilogy (Update: Rian Johnson Says His Trilogy is Still Happening)

[Myrddin Wild]

If Luke cant be "that guy" because he started training so late, how do we explain Rey?.

It's too late to get their head on straight... it's not too late to develop a lot of power.

The reservation to starting training older people is that as they grow... & develop... & even grow old... their psychology might not be able to handle the power if their mental training got started too late for them to negate their inner demons.

They even thought Ani was too old. So yeah... Rey's got a hell of a time ahead of her having not been through a proper training since infancy... but that doesn't mean she can't amass great power now. In fact part of the issue is that they could flip dark & go on a power trip once they get that power if they don't have a proper psychological background.

Luke rocked up & did some great things & had some outstanding moments... so did Rey. If one did something better than the other... then whatever... not everyone has the same abilities at the same capacity.

Keep in mind too that Luke was living a domestic life of leisure mixed in with his humdrum life of going to school & working a bit around the house... while wining about doing simple chores. Rey was fighting for her life every day & had a ferocious animal instinct that young Luke & Kylo know nothing about. What do you think the force responds to? it is raw will. You can imagine what not knowing if you're going to live from one day to the next can do for your raw will. It's no wonder the force was like a hurricane flowing through her. She is ferocious. Kylo called her a monster because of it & was shook as fook while noticing it.

Just have Rey learn some skills instead of suddenly having them because girls are awesome.

Rey has learned about the force about 72 hours before picking up a lightsaber and annihilating a group of praetorian guards. Beating up a couple thugs in the desert inst enough. She also appears to be Rens equal in pretty much everything, he even needs her help in that throne room fight.

It kind of seems like you're trolling... cause I've explained this a lot... but in case you're not & you really want to know how Rey's HARD WON ABILITIES CAME FROM HARD WORK & BEING ENDOWED WITH A HIGH AMOUNT OF THE FORCE... you can find those answers here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/137023361/

So even though hes been training presumably since he could walk under both Skywalker and Snoke, Rey has apparently caught up to him in a couple of days.

Kylo had been training for 6 years before TFA. approximately 4 years under Luke... & 2 years under Snoke. Snoke is not exactly a physical being.... his thing was more mental manipulation & force projection & stuff... & so I'm not sure how much lightsaber training Kylo might had gotten under him.

By contrast... Rey had been fighting for her life with a vicious will to survive on Jakku during the time & was so well known as an elite staff fighter that the thugs on jakku didn't f*ck with her. In TFA... she took out 2 of Plutt's thugs & life time soldier & best of his class Finn with her staff. All the while that silver spoon upper middle class playboy Kylo had been half assing his training. Not to mention that Kylo was not trying to beat her. He was trying to recruit her. Plus he was using a tremendous amount of the force to keep his guts from falling out & killing him... plus he was mentally f*cked from just killing his dad.

And since we include expanded universe, Luke received a great deal of training directly from Obi Wan after Episode 4.

Nothing that is not canon is real. There is no training info about Luke in Canon that isn't in the movies that I'm aware of. my point though... is that even if Luke had the best master for those entire 4 years in between each movie... (which he likely did not) he would still be no where near a Jedi master. Not even close.

Ani did it since he was a kid & was a knight through the whole Clone wars & still was not granted the title of master because of his mental blocks. Same thing with Luke. No way he was ever a Jedi master. Jedi Knight at best.

 

[BisexualMMA]

It kind of seems like you're trolling... cause I've explained this a lot... but in case you're not & you really want to know how Rey's HARD WON ABILITIES CAME FROM HARD WORK & BEING ENDOWED WITH A HIGH AMOUNT OF THE FORCE... you can find those answers here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/137023361/

It's not trolling. It seems we fundamentally disagree on whether things in a movie should be justified by things in that movie as opposed to external research materials.

There could be a 26 volume Encyclopedia Brittanica on Rey's acquisition of her various superpowers and how hard earned they were. The fact remains that in the span of less than one movie, she went from not knowing if the events of the preceding six films and the Jedi therein were even real, to besting Kylo Ren (trained by multiple masters for well over a decade) in multiple Jedi-related skills. Not just the fighting, but the mind control / reading stuff, where Kylo was absolutely giving it 100%.

It's a filmmaking failure. You can point to books and stuff if you want, and say the model has moved on and that the world wants to have to go research stuff outside the movie to make the movie good, but I disagree. A good movie doesn't send you to Wookiepedia in order for the characters to not be totally shitty. A good movie builds its characters in the movie.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

It's not trolling. It seems we fundamentally disagree on whether things in a movie should be justified by things in that movie as opposed to external research materials.

There could be a 26 volume Encyclopedia Brittanica on Rey's acquisition of her various superpowers and how hard earned they were. The fact remains that in the span of less than one movie, she went from not knowing if the events of the preceding six films and the Jedi therein were even real, to besting Kylo Ren (trained by multiple masters for well over a decade) in multiple Jedi-related skills. Not just the fighting, but the mind control / reading stuff, where Kylo was absolutely giving it 100%.

It's a filmmaking failure. You can point to books and stuff if you want, and say the model has moved on and that the world wants to have to go research stuff outside the movie to make the movie good, but I disagree. A good movie doesn't send you to Wookiepedia in order for the characters to not be totally shitty. A good movie builds its characters in the movie.

Yeah, that's definitely a disconnect we have on accepting the entire Canon universe as a part of the story... but the only reason you have that question is because of a curiosity. You don't have to know why she can do that. You're just curious. It makes absolutely no difference in the movie one way or the other how or why Rey can do what she does. If you want to know... then conveniently the answers are provided for you only a simple wookieepedia search away. Or you can quit being so difficult & just accept that she's got the force & so she's good at sh*t.

You know how much I hate to focus on just the movie... but I'm going to ignore the flashing lights in my head as I try to cut off the entire picture & wind down to the narrow focus of just the movie alone. She was living on a hostile planet for 10 years with as much force in her as young vader. Is it not implied in the movie that she had to learn how to take care of herself in combat situations & that the force would've helped her advance to a higher level quicker than Jones' picograms?

She took out 2 of Plutt's thugs & life time soldier Finn with her fooking stick. You don't really need outside canon to put it together that she's an elite staff fighter & that her hostile environment engaged with the force made her a stud. Do you not see how that could add up to her translating those skills to the sword?

Did you not get that Kylo was trying to recruit her... not kill her? You saw the blood coming from Kylo'z bad ass trenchcoat yeah? You noticed the part where he just killed his dad & later Snoke gave him sh*t about still being f*cked up by it right? It all adds up to why Kylo didn't just slice her in half from the get go. It's all there on film.

Also, It is very well documented in the movies... that Anakin was the only human that could pod race. As a 10 year old or whatever he was... he build 3po, his pod racer & was employed to fix shit for Squato or whatever teh fook his name waz. So is it all that hard to imagine that this girl who's livelyhood it waz to scavenge for parts learned a thing or 2 about mechanics along the way?

 

[BisexualMMA]

Yeah, that's definitely a disconnect we have on accepting the entire Canon universe as a part of the story... but the only reason you have that question is because of a curiosity. You don't have to know why she can do that. You're just curious. It makes absolutely no difference in the movie one way or the other how or why Rey can do what she does. If you want to know... then conveniently the answers are provided for you only a simple wookieepedia search away. Or you can quit being so difficult & just accept that she's got the force & so she's good at sh*t.

You know how much I hate to focus on just the movie... but I'm going to ignore the flashing lights in my head as I try to cut off the entire picture & wind down to the narrow focus of just the movie alone. She was living on a hostile planet for 10 years with as much force in her as young vader. Is it not implied in the movie that she had to learn how to take care of herself & that the force would've helped her advance to a higher level quicker than Jones' picograms?

She took out 2 of Plutt's thugs & life time soldier Finn with her fooking stick. You don't really need outside canon to put it together that she's an elite staff fighter & that her hostile environment engaged with the force made her a stud. Do you not see how that could add up to her translating those skills to the sword? Stick & sword aren't that different.

Did you not get that Kylo was trying to recruit her... not kill her? You saw the blood coming from Kylo'z bad ass trenchcoat yeah? You noticed the part where he just killed his dad & later Snoke gave him sh*t about still being f*cked up by it right? I mean we could maybe watch that part of the movie together if you didn't catch all that stuff & notice how it all adds up to why Kylo didn't just slice her in half from the get go. It's all there in the movie.

Also, It is very well documented in the movies... that Anakin was the only human that could pod race. As a 10 year old or whatever he was... he build 3po, his pod racer & was employed to fix shit for Squato or whatever teh fook his name waz. So is it all that hard to imagine that this girl who's livelyhood it waz to scavenge for parts learned a thing or 2 about mechanics along the way?

Personally, I wouldn't point to parallels with The Phantom Menace as justifications.

But I'll stick to Rey. You can call justifying her skills in the movie as unnecessary or a curiosity...but I disagree. Stuff like this is foundational in writing. Connor MacLeod doesn't start out super badass in Highlander and best the Kurgan weeks after picking up a sword. He grew up in warring Scottish clans and still got his shit pushed in by the Kurgan, then required mentorship by Sean Connery for years to even stand a chance.

He didn't just walk out immediately and beat the Kurgan and leave it to us to figure, well, yeah I guess he was around swords and stuff in Scotland, I mean, makes sense I guess.

Rocky doesn't just get his shot at Apollo and boom, take him out. He has skills, some skills, but he has to train like never before, and receive mentorship like never before, to even make a fight out of it at all. And he was an experienced pro boxer with 64 fights.

You claim that the movie alone justifies Rey as an "elite staff fighter." I have no problem with staff skills as a good starting point for sword skills, but why is she "elite?" I'll buy that she can handle herself, sure, grew up in a tough neighborhood and whatnot. But within a few weeks she's besting the Imperial Guard on pure swordsmanship while outnumbered? Because she sometimes had to fend off sand people that wanted her spaceship parts? How did she become elite? Where would she learn "elite" martial arts skills?

You can go to a reasonably tough school and learn how to fight well enough on the playground, but at nineteen or whatever Rey is supposed to be, you can't take that knowledge and walk into the Shaolin Temple and take out Bruce Lee and half a dozen of his armed friends with spinning shit.

The acquisition of her skills is not justified in the movies, two of them, in pretty much any way. Two movies in, they haven't even given her some kind of Anakin virgin birth chosen one nonsense, which would still be bad. And they certainly haven't justified any of it by having her earn it.

In terms of what has actually been justified with character development, she's basically still right at square one - should know how to dissect electronics and reasonably good at defending herself against unskilled or moderately skilled opposition. Everything since then - flying the Falcon better than Han, reading minds, beating Imperial Guards, beating 70% Hendricks Kylo, moving a thousand boulders... Literally all of that has just been handed to her by virtue of her existing and the movie needing or wanting the hero to do these things.

No great cinematic protagonists of the last many decades just powered up like this. There is a reason Rey is roundly criticized as a character. She's written poorly.

 

[Dreago]

^ It's not like Anakin was a Marty Stu either, he got embarassed by Dooku with his mentor.

 

[IamStryker]

Anything from Rian is going to suck just like the last jedi.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Personally, I wouldn't point to parallels with The Phantom Menace as justifications.

I'm sure it's funny to the fellow hater brigade that you mention you wouldn't recommend bringing up the prequels as an example, but you're the one who brought up the "movies only thing"... & so without me getting into why I loved the prequels... I'll just settle to say that as they are in fact "movies"... they fit into this limited criteria you've asked me to follow in our discussion... & so it is valid to refer to them.

You can go to a reasonably tough school and learn how to fight well enough on the playground, but at nineteen or whatever Rey is supposed to be, you can't take that knowledge and walk into the Shaolin Temple and take out Bruce Lee and half a dozen of his armed friends with spinning shit.

You're comparing how a regular human would develop in all of your examples. As we see in Anakin... he developed quicker as a kid with no training. He developed as a padawan to the comparable fighting skills the masters on the council had by the time he was Rey's age... so these beings with more force capacity are shown in the movies to evolve & advance faster than any other beings... especially those without the force... but even those with the force.

it was show in the movie how Rey has an especially high level of the force in her. So her advancing to the point of taking out even elite level non-force users is not that difficult to understand. I mean Luke spent a month on Degobah & crossed swords with Vader. I'll give you that they do not show her having a teacher in the movies... but don't you think that a decade of being self taught but you got massive force in you is enough? Can't you just accept that? Have you learned anything on your own personally in life or have you just always learned everything from a teacher? Personally, I've figured a lot of stuff out on my own having grown up in a time before google. Back then we had to figure sh*t out for ourselves. She had the force... & so everything was enhanced & went quicker.

Personally, I think you're just being difficult not accepting that. People don't have to be taught everything. People with force capacity akin to young ani can figure sh*t out.

Two movies in, they haven't even given her some kind of Anakin virgin birth chosen one nonsense, which would still be bad. And they certainly haven't justified any of it by having her earn it.

You don't even know how vader got his power 40 years later. You don't need it. You know it's possible. You heard Luke say that she has this massive Raw Power. That's it... She's got it.

I'm hoping for answers to why... but to be fair we really don't know why Anikan had it either. what if Ep. 9 blows our mindz & explainz them both in one nice clean explanation? That would be sweet. but in the meantime, you can have a bit of patience that you don't know why Rey has it when you've waited 40 years now to know why Vader had it. just accept that Rey has a lot of the force. You're only questioning it out of curiosity. It's no more important than why Vader had the force. The prequels teased that he waz made by the force itself, but we don't really even know what that means either.

I'm just saying that if this hasn't been an issue for you for the last 40 years then it shouldn't be an issue for you now.

flying the Falcon better than Han

I don't recall that comparison. In fact I recall her having a rough go at it at first until she got the hang of it. Again... Ani waz the only human who could pod race. We weren't told why or what his background was, but we don't need to know. We just accepted that his amount of the force allowed him to do it. Same with Rey.

I get that ani likely practiced a bit before he started pod racing... & him having his own pod racer answers what he practiced with... but we have to use our imagination to accept all that... which I did't have any problem doing. We have to use our imagination a bit to understand how Rey clumsily learned how to fly the falcon, but I didn't have any problem with that before I read the canon explanation.

(Damn I hate this "movie only explanation" sh*t... the answer's right there in Wookieepedia if you must know)

but if we're going just by the movie... then we see her operating her land speeder... so she does have driving experience... & it took her a bit to get used to the controls, but similar to a video game you pick up quickly, you get used to it.

reading minds

Very first viewing of the movie I totally got this. Kylo had his mind in hers... & she was resisting... all of a sudden she just realized that she could see his thoughts. She just started looking at what she saw. it made perfect sense to me. Kylo made the connection... & she just saw it. Just like when Luke was calling to Leia & she heard him. Prior to that we didn't hear of Luke being able to project thoughts into other people's minds... but the necessity of the moment allowed him to do it.

Again, Rey was primal with the force. She understood necessity & bare bones survival like Kylo never has. Necessity creates focus. She was being pressured to give up something she didn't want to give up... & the force responded to her focus & showed her what she needed to know.

beating Imperial Guards

You mean "beating non force users"

You're talking about the same guys from this clip where 2 of them are dispatched with a wave of a hand?

Hmm... wishing you could pull on non- movie information now?

beating 70% Hendricks Kylo

Definiately "post" USADA Hendrix

I've allready explained this in detail. He wanted to recruit her not kill her. 70% might be pretty generous.

moving a thousand boulders

Yoda explains this to Luke on Dagobah. You're not focused. Fooking domestic lifestyle with is biggest problem having to do a few chores didn't give him focus. If Rey slipped up she would be dead. She had a lazer focus that domestic Luke & silver spoon Kylo didn't have. They could never understand it unless they had to live for a decade not knowing if they would live to see tomorrow. There's a focus & intent in that.

Rey's friends were going to die if she didn't move those rocks & she focused & the force responded. I don't know if it's true but I've heard real life stories about a mother pushing a car over to save her child. Same thing... but whether or not that happened actually... you get the idea. necessity creates focus. focus activates the force... & the force moves rocks.

Literally all of that has just been handed to her by virtue of her existing and the movie needing or wanting the hero to do these things.

I disagree. i think she had a very hard life where her life was in danger every day & as such she honed her focus & intent & as Yoda taught us... that is what it takes to manipulate the force.

No great cinematic protagonists of the last many decades just powered up like this. There is a reason Rey is roundly criticized as a character. She's written poorly.

A decade of living in a hostile environment & having to rock up & fend for yourself while being endowed with vader quality force could hardly be considered the overnight transformation you're describing. You just gotta dispute that pov against the reality of young anikan. Kid just had it cause of the force. How the hell did he race those pods? No other human can do it at any age... he was fooking 10. How could he build a pod racer & 3po & work as a mechanic? Rey was twice the age he was then.

 

[Bob Gray]

It kind of seems like you're trolling... cause I've explained this a lot... but in case you're not & you really want to know how Rey's HARD WON ABILITIES CAME FROM HARD WORK & BEING ENDOWED WITH A HIGH AMOUNT OF THE FORCE... you can find those answers here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/137023361/

Thats complete shit reasoning. Even Anakin didnt get that powerful that quick. Youve literally gone in a few posts from saying Luke didnt have enough training, to Rey doesnt need training because her force power is so raw.

Kylo had been training for 6 years before TFA. approximately 4 years under Luke... & 2 years under Snoke. Snoke is not exactly a physical being.... his thing was more mental manipulation & force projection & stuff... & so I'm not sure how much lightsaber training Kylo might had gotten under him.

By contrast... Rey had been fighting for her life with a vicious will to survive on Jakku during the time & was so well known as an elite staff fighter that the thugs on jakku didn't f*ck with her. In TFA... she took out 2 of Plutt's thugs & life time soldier & best of his class Finn with her staff. All the while that silver spoon upper middle class playboy Kylo had been half assing his training. Not to mention that Kylo was not trying to beat her. He was trying to recruit her. Plus he was using a tremendous amount of the force to keep his guts from falling out & killing him... plus he was mentally f*cked from just killing his dad.

Thats about 6 years longer than Rey.

She was so well known that thugs didn't fuck with her. Except the two thugs literally in the beginning of TFA that fucked with her?

Here's part of the problem. I know you like to be the "Canon guy". But its obvious a lot of the things youve said is less canon and more fan theory. Palpatine "sensing snoke" in the outer regions is a good example. A lot of your points come from youtube vids from people pontificating about possibilities as opposed to actual Canon. The thing is, theres zero problem with that in nerd fan discussion, but defending actual movies with fan theories isnt gonna cut it.

Nothing that is not canon is real. There is no training info about Luke in Canon that isn't in the movies that I'm aware of. my point though... is that even if Luke had the best master for those entire 4 years in between each movie... (which he likely did not) he would still be no where near a Jedi master. Not even close..

The Marvel comics are explaining how he was getting training from Obi-Wan even after his death. His voice still speaks to him like it did when he saw Obi Wan die ("Run, Luke, run!"), and hes gone back to Tattooine at Obi Wans request to get Obis journals and writings. The current run takes place between New Hope and Empire, and amazingly enough Luke isnt taking out 4 elite guards at once.

Heres the other problem with your statement. What is your excuse going to be when Rey becomes a Jedi Master? Possibly even in episode IX?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I'm sure it's funny to the fellow hater brigade that you mention you wouldn't recommend bringing up the prequels as an example, but you're the one who brought up the "movies only thing"... & so without me getting into why I loved the prequels... I'll just settle to say that as they are in fact "movies"... they fit into this limited criteria you've asked me to follow in our discussion... & so it is valid to refer to them.

I meant I wouldn't necessarily use them (actually I referred only to TPM) as a referent for quality. (i.e. It was used in The Phantom Menace, so it being in TFA / TLJ is thus good or sufficient).

You're comparing how a regular human would develop in all of your examples.

Connor MacLeod wasn't a regular human, but I don't see any point in spending much time splitting hairs.

it was show in the movie how Rey has an especially high level of the force in her. So her advancing to the point of taking out even elite level non-force users is not that difficult to understand. I mean Luke spent a month on Degobah & crossed swords with Vader. I'll give you that they do not show her having a teacher in the movies... but don't you think that a decade of being self taught but you got massive force in you is enough?

No, I don't. The result of such things is this more often than not.

Can't you just accept that? Have you learned anything on your own personally in life or have you just always learned everything from a teacher? Personally, I've figured a lot of stuff out on my own having grown up in a time before google. Back then we had to figure sh*t out for ourselves. She had the force... & so everything was enhanced & went quicker.

No, I can't. It's bad writing. I can accept it only if I don't want to hold movies and screenplays to a high standard.

I've figured out plenty of things for myself, but even then I didn't get to the level of, say, Scottie Pippen all by myself with no trainer whatsoever, and then elevate to Michael Jordan within a few weeks, again with no trainer or coach. Force or no force, this chick is moving at a breakneck pace from a ridiculous starting point.

Personally, I think you're just being difficult not accepting that. People don't have to be taught everything. People with force capacity akin to young ani can figure sh*t out.

I don't know what's difficult about wanting a protagonist to be well written. Michael Corleone didn't start at the beginning of Godfather 1 as a cold calculating master strategist. He worked his way to that from a green kid with no mafia experience over the course of two movies, with guidance from a handful of masters. We even see Vito earning his skills.

You don't need it. You know it's possible. You heard Luke say that she has this massive Raw Power. That's it... She's got it.

Well, there it is...? That's the difference between writing a good character and good plot, and just writing down shit to get to the next part.

Like I said earlier about Rocky... Mickey doesn't just say, "Wow, Rocky is awesome." And then Rocky beats Apollo with no training. Why bother training? Mickey already said he was awesome.

...but in the meantime, you can have a bit of patience that you don't know why Rey has it when you've waited 40 years now to know why Vader had it. just accept that Rey has a lot of the force. You're only questioning it out of curiosity. It's no more important than why Vader had the force. The prequels teased that he waz made by the force itself, but we don't really even know what that means either.

The guy was possibly literally made by the force... And he still had to be trained by Obi Wan, observe Qui Gonn, learn from Yoda, be trained by Palpatine, get his ass kicked by Dooku, etc.

Yoda explains this to Luke on Dagobah. You're not focused. Fooking domestic lifestyle with is biggest problem having to do a few chores didn't give him focus. If Rey slipped up she would be dead. She had a lazer focus that domestic Luke & silver spoon Kylo didn't have. They could never understand it unless they had to live for a decade not knowing if they would live to see tomorrow. There's a focus & intent in that.

Then show her doing that. Don't have her beat a coople sand dufuses like it ain't no thang and leave it to us to surmise a movie and a half later that she must have exerted laser focus her entire life. Show her navigating that difficult planet and difficult life in a manner that shows this presumed laser focus. Is that focus required all the time? I don't know. Is Unkar Plutt laser focused all the time? Are those little Jawas that wanted BB8 laser focused all the time?

 

[moreorless87]

Beyond talking about canon I think you need to consider WHY that canon exists. Luke gains his force powers they way he does for dynamic reasons seeing a character struggle and learn from a master.

Again I do think Johnson was handed a bit of a poison chalice by Abrams, TFA was IMHO almost entirely concerned with being a vapid nostalgia fest and did a terrible job of handing down interesting lead characters with Rey as a bland mary sue and Finn bumbling comic relief. It was pretty hard to put the jack back in the box in terms of Rey already having extreme powers which made a master/student relationship with Luke difficult.

I actually think the best thing Johnson did in TLJ was setup the Rey/Kylo story, that for me was nicely done and did actually add some substance to her character for the first time. The problems I think he had though(I suspect due to Disney/lucasfilm pressure) is that he couldn't follow though on that story, she just rejects Kylo instantly. Equally whilst Rey might not have needed training from Luke he could have given her wisdom but that would have ment Luke potentially pushing force use into another area beyond traditional Jedi/Sith and again I suspect the studio wouldn't allow that.

To me TLJ feels like...



Its just so mixed backing out of its own stories and making such cheesey/empty political points it reeks of exec group think meddling.

 

[BisexualMMA]

To me TLJ feels like...

TLJ version would be learning Alex Murphy was always a piece of shit. Actually a lousy cop before he got to Detroit, plus a shitty husband and father. No wonder his wife moved on so quickly, who wouldn't. Guy was a piece of shit. He was probably on the take and working with Boddicker the whole time anyway.

 

[moreorless87]

TLJ version would be learning Alex Murphy was always a piece of shit. Actually a lousy cop before he got to Detroit, plus a shitty husband and father. No wonder his wife moved on so quickly, who wouldn't. Guy was a piece of shit. He was probably on the take and working with Boddicker the whole time anyway.

I mean that the film feels like its been though the same kind of vapid PC committee that Robocop has prior to that scene.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Thats complete shit reasoning. Even Anakin didnt get that powerful that quick. Youve literally gone in a few posts from saying Luke didnt have enough training, to Rey doesnt need training because her force power is so raw.

My point about Luke was obviously (to all those paying attention) about becoming a Jedi "MASTER" not a knight... a "MASTER"

My whole point about Rey is that she had a decade to get POWERFUL. (for all those paying attention that has nothing to do with becoming a JEDI MASTER)

Look at all the cool shit 10 year old Anakin could do and Rey is twice his age.

She was so well known that thugs didn't fuck with her. Except the two thugs literally in the beginning of TFA that fucked with her?

they were ordered to. What you gonna do on jakku when your boss Plutt tells you to.

Do you even think this sh*t through? I'm being truthful in these last 2 sections but I'm f*cking with you with my sarcasm because I didn't appreciate the hard way you came across to me in this post & this can go both ways just so you know. Lets try to keep in mind that the less sarcasm & bs like this we add into these discussion the more productive they can be.

Here's part of the problem. I know you like to be the "Canon guy". But its obvious a lot of the things youve said is less canon and more fan theory. Palpatine "sensing snoke" in the outer regions is a good example.

That's in wookieepedia under the canon section... if you want to dispute it then you're going to have to disprove it.

A lot of your points come from youtube vids from people pontificating about possibilities as opposed to actual Canon. The thing is, theres zero problem with that in nerd fan discussion, but defending actual movies with fan theories isnt gonna cut it.

I don't know wtf you're on about youtube videos. The information I quoted was under the canon section of wookieepedia. You're really getting a bit stupid with your attacks. You know that I can only handle so much of this kind of communication before I start getting stupid myself... & I can get as fooking stupid as any of you casualz.

The Marvel comics are explaining how he was getting training from Obi-Wan even after his death. His voice still speaks to him like it did when he saw Obi Wan die ("Run, Luke, run!"), and hes gone back to Tattooine at Obi Wans request to get Obis journals and writings. The current run takes place between New Hope and Empire, and amazingly enough Luke isnt taking out 4 elite guards at once.

Nice sarcastic end to an otherwise decent point.

However you seem to be mistaking "guidance" for "training"
Is Luke getting actual "training?"

All that aside... my point was that even if he was... he still would not be at the level of a legit Jedi master even after 4 years of it. Strange you so adamantly appose that with these sarcastic comebacks while backing an idea that probably even you know is flawed if you stopped to think about it for a moment. Nobody in history has achieved master status in 4 years. It's not even possible.

Heres the other problem with your statement. What is your excuse going to be when Rey becomes a Jedi Master? Possibly even in episode IX?

First of all, quit being a jackass.

I don't make excuses I explain things as best as I see them. The story group won't let it happen. It's impossible to achieve in that short of a time.

Look bro. I absolutely hate this trolly sarcastic venom spitting shit but I can't just let you sh*t all over me & so you had to get it back. Can we go back to being civil?... I liked you better when you weren't doing meth.

 

[Clear Winner]

TLJ was bad. Really bad and there is a lot that was far too convenient. The timing of Finn and that girl's return from the useless side mission to crash land in the resistance stronghold just in time. Then the fact that she crashes into him to stop him from saving the day and they somehow manage to come out unscathed and travel what must have been at least a mile back to the base without getting shot by the 1st order that they crashed in front of...

@Myrddin Wild can you explain that?

There's shit loads more that is wrong, but I'd like to see you explain that part.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I've figured out plenty of things for myself, but even then I didn't get to the level of, say, Scottie Pippen all by myself with no trainer whatsoever, and then elevate to Michael Jordan within a few weeks, again with no trainer or coach. Force or no force, this chick is moving at a breakneck pace from a ridiculous starting point.

You're discussing normal people here. I just brought up whether you've ever figured stuff out for yourself as an example to say that it isn't always necessary to be taught. Your examples are legit... but we're talking about the only human that is capable of pod racing at 10... & Ray is twice his age.

No, I can't. It's bad writing. I can accept it only if I don't want to hold movies and screenplays to a high standard.

I've figured out plenty of things for myself, but even then I didn't get to the level of, say, Scottie Pippen all by myself with no trainer whatsoever, and then elevate to Michael Jordan within a few weeks, again with no trainer or coach. Force or no force, this chick is moving at a breakneck pace from a ridiculous starting point.

We're disconnecting here. You said days to begin with and I said it was a decade she has been honing her skills. Now you're back to weeks(assuming that that's the same point as your days comment) but you're not even acknowledging that it was a decade.

I don't know what's difficult about wanting a protagonist to be well written. Michael Corleone didn't start at the beginning of Godfather 1 as a cold calculating master strategist. He worked his way to that from a green kid with no mafia experience over the course of two movies, with guidance from a handful of masters. We even see Vito earning his skills.

We're talking about 2 different things here. you're talking about spelling everything out in a movie & what your preference would be. I'm telling that we don't even need to know how Rey can do it. We got 10 year old Ani as the only human that can Pod race to show us why Ray who is twice that age didn't need someone to teach her how to fight with a staff to become elite within a decade.

Mickey doesn't just say, "Wow, Rocky is awesome." And then Rocky beats Apollo with no training. Why bother training? Mickey already said he was awesome.

Yet we knew nothing about how Vader got awesome till the prequels... & knew even less about the guy who was even more powerful than him.

You also didn't get the back story about how Apollo Creed got to be champ... but you just accepted it because that's where the story starts. Well this story starts where Rey knows how to fight.... & she's an expert on the flight simulator, & is a wiz mechanic.

I don't know what's difficult about wanting a protagonist to be well written. Michael Corleone didn't start at the beginning of Godfather 1 as a cold calculating master strategist. He worked his way to that from a green kid with no mafia experience over the course of two movies, with guidance from a handful of masters. We even see Vito earning his skills.

Some movies show people that develop from nothing to become something. Some movies start where somebody is something. I'm sure I don't need examples of that.

I think you're backing your preference up with this idea that only a movie that shows how someone got from regular to super human is the only way to go... but in this case we caught Rey at the verge of that transformation. She all ready has a lot of skills... & she's about to develop more. You don't need to know how she got the skills she has all ready any more than you need to know how forest gumps mom learned such good psychology. She just did...

The guy was possibly literally made by the force... And he still had to be trained by Obi Wan, observe Qui Gonn, learn from Yoda, be trained by Palpatine, get his ass kicked by Dooku, etc.

Do you think he needed any of that sh*t to develop? No he did not. At 10 years old he was the only human that could pod race. he built his own pod... he built C3PO & he had a steady job as a mechanic. To be honest, the Jedi training slowed him down with the psychological side of it.

If we're just talking about how Rey could get so powerful, then we have to imagine what would happen if 10 year old Anikan just continued to evolve on his own for another decade.

You reckon he could become a master staff fighter? I do. At the very least.

Then show her doing that. Don't have her beat a coople sand dufuses like it ain't no thang and leave it to us to surmise a movie and a half later that she must have exerted laser focus her entire life. Show her navigating that difficult planet and difficult life in a manner that shows this presumed laser focus.

I hear you talking about movie making again... but we're not talking about your preferences. We're talking about whether or not there's enough info in the movies to recognize Rey's skill level. I too would've appreciated a scene showing her looking at the computer in the AT-AT she lived in while doing staff movements & then whipping over to the flight simulator... & then practicing wookiee & binary droid language & looking at schematics of ships, but we didn't get that. You're throwing the backstory down the drain because they didn't spell it out for us, but I'm making points that those stories have been told with anakin & so we don't need to show what a force sensitive dynamo is capable of.

Is that focus required all the time? I don't know.

She could let her guard down while she was at home in her AT-AT, but any time she went out it was literally like walking through a tough neighborhood at midnight. Even times that nobody's around, you have to stay aware in case you just didn't detect them. Even if you're the man but you're alone... you gotta be ready to roll. I could write on & on about this state of mind but can't you put your head into it? That's the only way it can be understood.

Now lets look at 7 years before TFA... to upper middle class Kylo being upset because he has to do a load of laundry. & then ffs he's got to put the dishes into the dishwasher when he wasn't even hungry earlier... & so he only dirtied a glass or 2... & maybe one bowl of left overs that he finished off later. The life of domestic leisure is boring him to death. Can you feel the difference there?

Is Unkar Plutt laser focused all the time?

He's got thugs on the pay roll obviously, but I'm sure that gangster king pin life comes with a price of having to look over your shoulder.

Are those little Jawas that wanted BB8 laser focused all the time?

Yes.

You're referring to the Gangster Teedo.

Great example... and excellent choice cause it helped answered your doubts.

this is a canon video from the "Forces of Destiny" series that happens after the scene you're referring to

 

[TONY-T]

Um, no.

 

[robertcop2]

You're discussing normal people here. I just brought up whether you've ever figured stuff out for yourself as an example to say that it isn't always necessary to be taught. Your examples are legit... but we're talking about the only human that is capable of pod racing at 10... & Ray is twice his age.


We're disconnecting here. You said days to begin with and I said it was a decade she has been honing her skills. Now you're back to weeks(assuming that that's the same point as your days comment) but you're not even acknowledging that it was a decade.



We're talking about 2 different things here. you're talking about spelling everything out in a movie & what your preference would be. I'm telling that we don't even need to know how Rey can do it. We got 10 year old Ani as the only human that can Pod race to show us why Ray who is twice that age didn't need someone to teach her how to fight with a staff to become elite within a decade.

Yet we knew nothing about how Vader got awesome till the prequels... & knew even less about the guy who was even more powerful than him.

You also didn't get the back story about how Apollo Creed got to be champ... but you just accepted it because that's where the story starts. Well this story starts where Rey knows how to fight.... & she's an expert on the flight simulator, & is a wiz mechanic.

Some movies show people that develop from nothing to become something. Some movies start where somebody is something. I'm sure I don't need examples of that.

I think you're backing your preference up with this idea that only a movie that shows how someone got from regular to super human is the only way to go... but in this case we caught Rey at the verge of that transformation. She all ready has a lot of skills... & she's about to develop more. You don't need to know how she got the skills she has all ready any more than you need to know how forest gumps mom learned such good psychology. She just does...

Do you think he needed any of that sh*t to develop? No he did not. At 10 years old he was the only human that could pod race. he built his own pod... he built C3PO & he had a steady job as a mechanic. To be honest, the Jedi training slowed him down with the psychological side of it.

If we're just talking about how Rey could get so powerful, then we have to imagine what would happen if 10 year old Anikan just continued to evolve on his own for another decade.

You reckon he could become a master staff fighter? I do. At the very least.


I hear you talking about movie making again... but we're not talking about your preferences. We're talking about whether or not there's enough info in the movies to recognize Rey's skill level. I too would've appreciated a scene showing her looking at the computer in the AT-AT she lived in while doing staff movements & then whipping over to the flight simulator... & then practicing wookiee & binary droid language & looking at schematics of ships, but we didn't get that. You're throwing the backstory down the drain because they didn't spell it out for us, but I'm making points that those stories have been told with anakin & so we don't need to show what a force sensitive dynamo is capable of.


She could let her guard down while she was at home in her AT-AT, but any time she went out it was literally like walking through a tough neighborhood at midnight. Even times that nobody's around, you have to stay aware in case you just didn't detect them. Even if you're the man but you're alone... you gotta be ready to roll. I could write on & on about this state of mind but can't you put your head into it? That's the only way you'll understand.

now lets look at 7 years before TFA... to upper middle class Kylo being upset because he has to do a load of laundry. & living the live of domestic leisure is boring him to death. Can you feel the difference there?



He's got thugs on the pay roll obviously, but I'm sure that gangster king pin life comes with a price of having to look over your shoulder.
Yes.

You're referring to the Gangster Teedo.

Great example... and excellent choice cause it helped answered your doubts.

this is a canon video from the "Forces of Destiny" series that happens after the scene you're referring to

You write all this bullshit to justify a movie being good. If the movie was any good, you wouldn't have to write all this nonsense. I really hope you are a teenager, because an adult so devoted to bad movies and infantile lore is a sad, SAD thing.

 

[moreorless87]

TLJ was bad. Really bad and there is a lot that was far too convenient. The timing of Finn and that girl's return from the useless side mission to crash land in the resistance stronghold just in time. Then the fact that she crashes into him to stop him from saving the day and they somehow manage to come out unscathed and travel what must have been at least a mile back to the base without getting shot by the 1st order that they crashed in front of...

@Myrddin Wild can you explain that?

There's shit loads more that is wrong, but I'd like to see you explain that part.

I think highlighting that these sequels are similar to Abrams Trek films, they might have more direct designs from the original Starwars but the setting is significantly more cartoonish, a place in which glaring coincidences aren't an issue.

 

[Clear Winner]

I think highlighting that these sequels are similar to Abrams Trek films, they might have more direct designs from the original Starwars but the setting is significantly more cartoonish, a place in which glaring coincidences aren't an issue.

Them not getting injured in a highspeed crash and walking back to the base, despite there being tons of 1st order right there and looking to kill them, isn't a coincidence, it's an impossibility.

To make it worse, the ground was flat and white, so it's not like they could blend in or hide behind anything. It's ridiculous.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

TLJ was bad. Really bad and there is a lot that was far too convenient. The timing of Finn and that girl's return from the useless side mission to crash land in the resistance stronghold just in time. Then the fact that she crashes into him to stop him from saving the day and they somehow manage to come out unscathed and travel what must have been at least a mile back to the base without getting shot by the 1st order that they crashed in front of...

@Myrddin Wild can you explain that?

There's shit loads more that is wrong, but I'd like to see you explain that part.

If Finn & Rose would've stayed in the hanger & none of that happened the movie would've played out exactly the way it did

So this gripe is inconsiquential to the story.

All right... now your turn.

Since no amount of bullets ever get through a shield wall... how come a bunch of dogs got through the Wakanda shield? & not just a few... they started getting through in very large numbers through a shield wall.