New ACC Strategy Underlines Need for A-10 Replacement*updates*

i thought this engine was ment for the 6th generation fighter program.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/ge-details-sixth-generation-adaptive-fighter-engine-plan

...the Air Force is planning a follow-on initiative called the Adaptive Engine Transfer Program (AETP). This will pave the way for an adaptive, 45,000-lb.-thrust-class combat powerplant for sixth-generation combat aircraft as well as the possible reengining of the Lockheed Martin F-35 in the 2020s.

It seems GE have been busy since the F136 got axed. I have also heard rumblings about PW working on an "ADVENTified" F135... sounds promising.
 
So they are using the F-35 as a Test bed for 6th generation technology.

I suspect so. Wouldn't surprise me to see directed energy weapons, DIRCM etc. making an appearance on it as well.
 
Last edited:
It would be very simple and cheap to set up a new line and build new A-10s compared to designing a series of new aircraft to find one that will do the job. They have tried for decades to replace the B-52 and haven't come up with anything that can do the job it does as efficiently as it does.

No, it's not.

This is why anyone who looks into the issue further than what a great warplane the A-10 is doesn't talk about producing more A-10s. No A-10 airframe has been built for over 30 years and none will ever be, period, full stop, because it doesn't make any economic sense.

Restarting a production line once it has stopped is an enormous economic and logistical undertaking. This is why stopping production is such a political deal - it often costs less to continue production at an enormous cost for things you don't need, just in case you might need them in the future, which is that enormous cost by an order of magnitude. And that's for systems with suppliers and submanufacturers that still exist, using modern design and production methods.

Restarting a production line that's 30 years defunct is a ridiculous proposition on its face because of how expensive it will be. For how many planes? The less you make, the higher the cost per unit. Diner table napkin figures gives you a cost where you're better off with a clean sheet design from scratch. The whole notion of making more A-10s is just absurd.
 
With today's technology, the Air Force can more effectively perform the CAS mission by using new multirole aircraft to manage information and give pilots a clearer picture of the battle space, argued Rebecca Grant, president of IRIS Independent Research, Washington.

"Close-air support is a lot more, in a way, about managing the information: who is on the ground, who needs what, what's the developing situation," Grant said. "This is really not about the pilot flying and looking down and trying to see the situation on the ground. If that's how they are doing it, well, that's how our grandfathers did it in World War II. That's not the gold standard today."

The A-10 performs well in an environment of total aerial dominance, as in Iraq and Afghanistan, Birkey said, but may not be survivable in less permissive environments. In a notional land engagement in the Asia/Pacific, the A-10 may not have applicability, he added.

The Air Force could design a replacement A-10 that is capable of multiple missions, said Mark Gunzinger, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, Washington.

"If you are thinking about the future and the kind of operational environments that the Air Force is prepared for, should prepare for, to me it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a single-mission" platform for CAS, Gunzinger said. "It makes a great deal of sense to have a multi-mission platform performing that mission. In fact, it makes a lot of sense to have many multi-mission aircraft capable of supporting that mission, not just one."

But with several costly projects looming in the next few decades, including the new bomber, the Air Force does not see a clear funding stream for a next-generation A-10 replacement. Given a better budget environment, the service would want a relatively cheap, next-generation aircraft to provide close support for ground troops — but that is not a realistic proposal today, Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh said this spring.

"We need a low-threat CAS platform in the near future, if the money will allow it," Welsh said at an April event sponsored by Defense One in Washington. "It doesn't today, but we would certainly like to have something like that, that operates more efficiently than what we have today, that carries more firepower and does so in a low-threat environment."

It would be a challenge for the Air Force to squeeze another new aircraft into the budget plan, which already includes recapitalizing the bomber, trainer and Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System fleets, Gunzinger said.

One option is to combine the T-X and A-X programs, given the trainer's capability to conduct CAS missions, he suggested.

"It would be a multimission system — light attack, close-air support, along with our training aircraft," Gunzinger said. "It could help defray the cost of developing an A-10 replacement, since the Air Force has already determined it's going to invest in T-X."

Unless there is a radical shift in the short-term budget environment, analysts see the Air Force potentially developing a replacement A-10 after the procurement "bulge" in the 2020s. Still, the Air Force must balance tight resources and technological advancements with calls to replace the A-10 one-for-one.

"To me, this looks like the ACC is wanting to explore all its options," Grant said. "I think Congress has made really clear that they want a fuller discussion of the A-10. So the question down the road will be, as they evaluate a single-mission aircraft, how much do they want to give up?"


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-explores-close-air-supports-future/32109249/


My god, they need to stop trying to combine fucking programs an make "common air platforms" or 1 plane does everything. How stupid are these air force idiots.
 
Last edited:
Still, Welsh noted the Air Force never intended to use the multi-role fighter jet as a direct replacement for the A-10, which is a single-mission platform dedicated to close-in attack.

"The idea that the F-35 is going to walk in this door next year when it [reaches initial operational capability] and take over for the A-10 is just silly," Welsh said. "It has never been our intent and we've never said that, so that's not a plan."

Welsh said he would like to see an A-10 replacement, often referred to as A-X, that can perform the low-threat CAS mission even better than the legacy Warthog. Service officials have recently indicated a notional A-X might be in the works.

The Air Force has been trying to retire the aging A-10 for several years to save money — as much as $4.2 billion over the next five years. However, defenders of the program, including several prominent members of Congress, accuse the Air Force of abandoning troops on the ground by retiring the plane without a dedicated CAS replacement.

Given the tight budget environment, retiring the A-10 is a crucial step in the Air Force's plans to modernize its fleet, Secretary Deborah Lee James said during the press conference.

"If we had billions and billions and billions of additional dollars over the President's Budget level — and I'll remind you we are struggling to get the President's Budget level approved — but if we had billions more we would love to maintain the A-10," James said. "But in a budget-constrained environment, this is one of the tough choices that we had to make for the sake of moving forward and modernizing."


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...f-35-vs--10-testing--silly-exercise/32292147/
 
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-explores-close-air-supports-future/32109249/

My god, they need to stop trying to combine fucking programs an make "common air platforms" or 1 plane does everything. How stupid are these air force idiots.

They're not that stupid. Ultimately, it makes a lot of sense.

What do the F-15, F-16, F-18, F-18E/F have in common? They are all multirole tactical strike fighters. The F18 and the F18E (pretty much a whole different aircraft) were multirole right from the beginning. While the F15 and F16 began their service lives in dedicated A2A roles, their primary tactical role over the past decade and a half has been delivering A2G ordnance. Even the F14, about as specialized in the Cold War A2A paradigm as it gets, delivered more ordnance in the strike role than it ever did A2A. The USN got rid of F14s in favor the F18E/F because Super Hornets do multirole much, much better than F14s.

Historical trends, budgetary constraints, logistical practicalities and on and on and on, all lead to one conclusion - the primary workhorse of a nation's air forces will be a single multirole, tactical strike fighter. Even the wealthiest nations will only be able to afford 1, maybe 2 different tactical airframes. The US can afford 2, maybe 3 at a stretch.

It is very, very difficult to justify a dedicated, single role aircraft. Ideally, the USAF would fly three planes, one dedicated air superiority (F22), one multirole, general purpose strike (F35, meh) and one dedicated CAS (A10 or its replacement) but if you can only have two, then that dedicated CAS plane is the one that's going to get cut.

It's not stupid, that's just reality.
 
They're not that stupid. Ultimately, it makes a lot of sense.

What do the F-15, F-16, F-18, F-18E/F have in common? They are all multirole tactical strike fighters. The F18 and the F18E (pretty much a whole different aircraft) were multirole right from the beginning. While the F15 and F16 began their service lives in dedicated A2A roles, their primary tactical role over the past decade and a half has been delivering A2G ordnance. Even the F14, about as specialized in the Cold War A2A paradigm as it gets, delivered more ordnance in the strike role than it ever did A2A. The USN got rid of F14s in favor the F18E/F because Super Hornets do multirole much, much better than F14s.

Historical trends, budgetary constraints, logistical practicalities and on and on and on, all lead to one conclusion - the primary workhorse of a nation's air forces will be a single multirole, tactical strike fighter. Even the wealthiest nations will only be able to afford 1, maybe 2 different tactical airframes. The US can afford 2, maybe 3 at a stretch.

It is very, very difficult to justify a dedicated, single role aircraft. Ideally, the USAF would fly three planes, one dedicated air superiority (F22), one multirole, general purpose strike (F35, meh) and one dedicated CAS (A10 or its replacement) but if you can only have two, then that dedicated CAS plane is the one that's going to get cut.

It's not stupid, that's just reality.


Well, maybe your right. It's not filling all these rolls like the f-35. However seems weird that they are gonna try to mix the T-X and A-X 2 programs. Also, apparently the F-35 is also hurting the air-forces capability's not only with the a-10, but with the F-16
 
Well, maybe your right. It's not filling all these rolls like the f-35. However seems weird that they are gonna try to mix the T-X and A-X 2 programs. Also, apparently the F-35 is also hurting the air-forces capability's not only with the a-10, but with the F-16

Why is that so crazy? Historically, trainers and light attack have gone hand in hand.

The closest thing the RoW has to an A-10 CAS platform without actually being in A-10 is the Su-25, the Su-28 variant of which is an advanced jet trainer. The flight profiles and characteristics of modern advanced jet trainers such as the Yak-130/M-346 aren't that far off the Su-25/28.

And indeed, advanced trainer/light attack role are one and the same for a lot of air forces that can't afford multiple aircraft, which is why you see successful bids put in for planes like the T/FA-50.

If a dedicated, single-role CAS aircraft isn't going to happen, an advanced trainer with upgraded engines, avionics, hardpoints/payload and pilot survivability might be the next best thing.
 
Why is that so crazy? Historically, trainers and light attack have gone hand in hand.

The closest thing the RoW has to an A-10 CAS platform without actually being in A-10 is the Su-25, the Su-28 variant of which is an advanced jet trainer. The flight profiles and characteristics of modern advanced jet trainers such as the Yak-130/M-346 aren't that far off the Su-25/28.

And indeed, advanced trainer/light attack role are one and the same for a lot of air forces that can't afford multiple aircraft, which is why you see successful bids put in for planes like the T/FA-50.

If a dedicated, single-role CAS aircraft isn't going to happen, an advanced trainer with upgraded engines, avionics, hardpoints/payload and pilot survivability might be the next best thing.

Fair enough, i wounder if they will keep to the same formula which is build the plane around a gun. And it souns to me your also hinting at the Talon which was a F-5 tiger
 
Fair enough, i wounder if they will keep to the same formula which is build the plane around a gun. And it souns to me your also hinting at the Talon which was a F-5 tiger

I doubt it. Strafing things with a gun is a pretty high risk/low reward way to conduct CAS these days (ref my previous posts).
 
Fair enough, i wounder if they will keep to the same formula which is build the plane around a gun. And it souns to me your also hinting at the Talon which was a F-5 tiger

Definitely there are some parallels.

The Korean T/FA-50 draws a lot from the F-16 (if you squint your eyes, you can see the basic outline there) and Lockheed Martin has stated that this was what they intended to be the replacement for the T-38.

What makes the T/FA-50 and the M-346 well suited as a modern trainer - wider flight envelope at the stall side, forgiving handling characteristics, low wing loading, etc - might be exactly what makes them or planes built along those lines more suitable for dedicated CAS versus surplus F-16s.

If you look at the T/FA-50, it was built to mount a gun, so right from the beginning, it was never meant to be just a trainer. Personally, I think the M-346 is a better looking plane.

But yeah, we're never going to see a plane built around a gun like the A-10. The A-10 concept was a once in a century concept that exists only because of the Cold War and the threat of massive enemy armor coming across the Fulda Gap. The probability of that kind of threat existing in the near future is not likely at all. Not enough to warrant another plane like the A-10.
 
Still depends where you attack said tank from(since we are saying advanced armour we will use the T-90). Side, rear, top? im pretty sure a DU round will knock the tank out.

http://www.quora.com/Can-an-A-10-Wa...n-tank-like-a-T-90-with-its-Gatling-gun-alone

here a good article on that from an A-10 pilot.

That article essentially repeats what I said earlier in the thread - is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. Would it be standard operating procedure (or even smart) for A10 pilots to get that low to go chasing after T90's with their GAU-8's? Absolutely not. Not when things like Maverick, SDB, JDAM and Paveway exist (!!).

Given the range and firepower restrictions inherent in a cannon bound to a jet aircraft, I doubt you'll see a major jet built around its gun in the foreseeable future.

Now a directed energy weapon/laser? Much more plausible...
 
Still depends where you attack said tank from(since we are saying advanced armour we will use the T-90). Side, rear, top? im pretty sure a DU round will knock the tank out.

http://www.quora.com/Can-an-A-10-Wa...n-tank-like-a-T-90-with-its-Gatling-gun-alone

here a good article on that from an A-10 pilot.

There is no way that it penetrates 200mm or even half that, I'd place my bets on about 50-60mm at 1000m.

NAMMO gives >100mm penetration for their 30x173 APFSDS-T round at 1000m.

30mm APFSDS 230g round with muzzle velocity of 1430 ms/s compared to a GAU-8 395g at 1070 ms/s.
 
That article essentially repeats what I said earlier in the thread - is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. Would it be standard operating procedure (or even smart) for A10 pilots to get that low to go chasing after T90's with their GAU-8's? Absolutely not. Not when things like Maverick, SDB, JDAM and Paveway exist (!!).

Given the range and firepower restrictions inherent in a cannon bound to a jet aircraft, I doubt you'll see a major jet built around its gun in the foreseeable future.

Now a directed energy weapon/laser? Much more plausible...

That article links to another article that's informative and also pretty fun to read.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/co...a-10-pilots-to-kill-soviet-tanks-a26385113bf0
 
LOL funny but still useful I imagine. Man do WIB have it in for the F35 though. Every other article seems to be about/relate back to how bad it is/will be... smh.

Haha. That article took me back. I grew up an Army brat and at one point, I asked my dad for playing cards and because he was too cheap to go to the PX to buy a real deck, he gave me his Aircraft Recognition Playing Cards:

c219planecard.jpg


Along with his vehicle recognition playing cards. I pretty had both decks, silhouettes and basic stats completely memorized when I was 10-11 years old and have been able to visually distinguish, tell you the NATO reporting name and recite the basic stats of old Warsaw Pact aircraft and armored vehicles ever since.

Come in handy a few times, but not when I was in the Army, oddly enough.
 
Haha. That article took me back. I grew up an Army brat and at one point, I asked my dad for playing cards and because he was too cheap to go to the PX to buy a real deck, he gave me his Aircraft Recognition Playing Cards:[/IMG]

Along with his vehicle recognition playing cards. I pretty had both decks, silhouettes and basic stats completely memorized when I was 10-11 years old and have been able to visually distinguish, tell you the NATO reporting name and recite the basic stats of old Warsaw Pact aircraft and armored vehicles ever since.

Come in handy a few times, but not when I was in the Army, oddly enough.

lol. I, on the other hand, did not come from a military family but became obsessed with military aviation after two important milestones: 1.) Watching Top Gun for the first time (a right of passage for any young man) and 2.) being introduced to this classic:

[YT]OmqPoI936K4[/YT]

I dare say I may have given you a run for your money on aircraft recognition at the same age."Obsessed" is the key word. :wink:
 
Back
Top