New ACC Strategy Underlines Need for A-10 Replacement*updates*

The real pressure to phase out the A-10 comes from the corporations eager to squeeze more money out of the Pentagon by selling it shit it doesn't need at prices it can't afford.

Just making a new batch with more modern materials and some minor upgrades would yield a CAS platform ten times as good as US will ever actually really need, for a fraction of the price. But that doesn't put bigitme money in the pocket of the defense sector, which also means no cushy post-retirement jobs for high-ranking Air Force personnell.
 
Why do we need better internals, engines, airframe upgrades, etc?The thing works really good, and the people we actually fight are not advancing their weapons technology at all.

It doesnt sound like we need to be building a new plane, just tweak the design of the old one so that we can make more out of modern parts.

ok ill work with that. Like a new variant would be worth it. A-10D?


there are more defense outlets pointing at US Air Combat Command developing a replacement aircraft.
 
The reason you cant 'update' the A-10?
-What does the A-10 need to remain relevant in todays connected battlefield: Modernity. We still have to train kids in a digital age to work that things vacuum tubes.

-It also is beginning to face issues with incompatibility with our weapons systems. If it cant guide a JDAM because it lacks to weapons sensor suite, its a handicap. If it cant do precision night attack because its avionics are from 1979 its a handicap. If it cant do CAS in urban environments because it relies on dumb munitions its a handicap.

In order alleviate the aforementioned issues, you'd need to free up space in the current airframe, or design a new airframe...and the stumbling block there is that youd have to omit the big ass gun. Would you be willing to keep the A-10 if the 30mm was replaced with a comprehensive IRST, FLIR, and multisensor radar and commo set?
 
So this isn't about college basketball?

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The reason you cant 'update' the A-10?
-What does the A-10 need to remain relevant in todays connected battlefield: Modernity. We still have to train kids in a digital age to work that things vacuum tubes.


-It also is beginning to face issues with incompatibility with our weapons systems. If it cant guide a JDAM because it lacks to weapons sensor suite, its a handicap. If it cant do precision night attack because its avionics are from 1979 its a handicap. If it cant do CAS in urban environments because it relies on dumb munitions its a handicap.

In order alleviate the aforementioned issues, you'd need to free up space in the current airframe, or design a new airframe...and the stumbling block there is that youd have to omit the big ass gun. Would you be willing to keep the A-10 if the 30mm was replaced with a comprehensive IRST, FLIR, and multisensor radar and commo set?



You really haven't read much on the upgrades of the A-10C have you?
 
I think the larger issue is that low altitude, loitering CAS is a pretty rare occurrence in just about all but the most permissive environments these days. The A10 has been great in COIN ops like those in Iraq and Afghanistan. Put it up against the SAM/IADS capabilities being developed in places like China and Russia though and it's going to struggle and/or die.

Even the 30mm can no longer be considered a tank killer. Plinking Soviet era T55s with it is one thing, but its not really going to make a modern MBT blink anymore.
 
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I think the larger issue is that low altitude, loitering CAS is a pretty rare occurrence in just about all but the most permissive environments these days. The A10 has been great in COIN ops like those in Iraq and Afghanistan. Put it up against the SAM/IADS capabilities being developed in places like China and Russia though and it's going to struggle and/or die.

Even the 30mm can no longer be considered a tank killer. Plinking Soviet era T55s with it is one thing, but its not really going to make a modern MBT blink anymore.

? where did you read that? Because thats far from true...
 
I dont see a 30 mm scoring anything other than a mobility kill on a somewhat modern tank.
 
I dont see a 30 mm scoring anything other than a mobility kill on a somewhat modern tank.

We Talking nato tanks or T-80, t-90 and so on.




i imagine if you hit one of those in the side or Rear it could probably kill the T-90MS. Besides that, dont we have a more modernized version of the Avenger cannon?
 
Yes, destroy its mobility for a while sure but disable the tank to the point where it can not do anything? GAU-8 lacks APDS ammo probably because having the engines suck in the discarding sabot appears to be a pretty bad idea.
 
I think the larger issue is that low altitude, loitering CAS is a pretty rare occurrence in just about all but the most permissive environments these days. The A10 has been great in COIN ops like those in Iraq and Afghanistan. Put it up against the SAM/IADS capabilities being developed in places like China and Russia though and it's going to struggle and/or die.

Even the 30mm can no longer be considered a tank killer. Plinking Soviet era T55s with it is one thing, but its not really going to make a modern MBT blink anymore.
It was designed to counter the Soviet armor advance in the 1980's and 1990's. It was designed to survive a long list of threats like MANPADS (Strela, Igla), SPAAGs (Shilka, Tunguska) and medium range SAMs (Buk,Tor) already in service with the Soviets by then. These systems are still consider quite modern and will still wreck most planes' day even in 2015. The A-10 is not some sitting duck just because 20 years has passed.

The 30mm cannon can still be effective against modern armor. While it can't penetrate frontal armor, the sides/top as well as external equipments of the tank are still highly vulnerable to damage. You don't have to defeat the frontal armor to put a tank out of commission. A single 30mm round to the engine compartment and that tank is immobilized. Take out the thermal sight and optics and that tank is nothing more than a combat ineffective tractor.
 
ok ill work with that. Like a new variant would be worth it. A-10D?


there are more defense outlets pointing at US Air Combat Command developing a replacement aircraft.

They probably will. it will cost 400 billion dollars for 30 of them and not work.
 
It was designed to counter the Soviet armor advance in the 1980's and 1990's. It was designed to survive a long list of threats like MANPADS (Strela, Igla), SPAAGs (Shilka, Tunguska) and medium range SAMs (Buk,Tor) already in service with the Soviets by then. These systems are still consider quite modern and will still wreck most planes' day even in 2015. The A-10 is not some sitting duck just because 20 years has passed.

The 30mm cannon can still be effective against modern armor. While it can't penetrate frontal armor, the sides/top as well as external equipments of the tank are still highly vulnerable to damage. You don't have to defeat the frontal armor to put a tank out of commission. A single 30mm round to the engine compartment and that tank is immobilized. Take out the thermal sight and optics and that tank is nothing more than a combat ineffective tractor.

But but but but the airforce saids the F-35 is the LOGICALLY the next step.
 
The A-10 was last produced in 1984.

Every single airframe in the inventory is over 30 years old. Those aren't bomber years, those are tactical airframe years. All these airframes are well past their original projected life cycles and in all reality, are approaching the end of their service lives.

If you want new airframes, where you gonna build them? Fairchild Aviation hasn't existed for over 10 years. Those production facilities don't exist anymore. The people who built the planes and the plant engineers who built the assembly works are dead or in nursing homes. Getting a production operation running again for every single part is an enormous undertaking, the costs of which are just as much, if not more than a modern clean sheet design.

The A-10 is a cool plane, but no amount of ten thousand word essays on Foxtrot Alpha are going to change the reality that the service life of those still in the inventory are numbered and that no more will ever be build. Economically, it's not going to happen.
 
? where did you read that? Because thats far from true...

Afraid not. Even late model T72s tend to be covered in ERA bricks that will be extremely problematic for even the GAU-8 to overcome. This is ignoring the hazards involved in descending below 10,000ft to conduct said strafing run...

It was designed to counter the Soviet armor advance in the 1980's and 1990's. It was designed to survive a long list of threats like MANPADS (Strela, Igla), SPAAGs (Shilka, Tunguska) and medium range SAMs (Buk,Tor) already in service with the Soviets by then.

Actually this is false. The A-X program (from which the A10 was born) called for a design driven by requirements derived from lessons learnt in Vietnam - namely for a CAS aircraft that could operate at low to medium altitude (to the exclusion of high altitude ops) with:
- a long loiter time
- a large payload
- the ruggedness to operate near the front line and in the face of battle damage.
- an emphasis on using terrain masking at low level to avoid enemy fire

This was all in a context that well and truly predates the systems you mentioned. ie. one dominated by crew served AA guns, and primitive MANPAD/SHORAD missiles whose ability to engage a fast, low flying jet was inconsistent at best. Back then all you had for CAS was dumb bombs, unguided rockets and a cannon so you literally HAD to fly low to be accurate and/or effective doing CAS. NOT the case today, and it hasn't been for quite some time.

The CAS landscape has changed considerably since the A10 was designed:

* CAS aircraft don't need to rely on low altitude operation to the same extent now due to:

1.) The prevalence of air launched guided weapons.
2.) The advent and proliferation of high quality targeting pods
3.) SAR mapping radars, particularly those found in AESA's like APG79 or 81


* The proliferation of highly capable SHORAD systems (like the ones you mentioned) has seen a move away from the low altitude domain across a multitude of platforms, ranging from the A10 to the F111 (in its day), Tornado and the B1B. My understanding is that this was driven in large part by losses sustained during Desert Storm in this part of the flight envelope.

These systems are still consider quite modern and will still wreck most planes' day even in 2015. The A-10 is not some sitting duck just because 20 years has passed.

I didn't say it was - if you re-read my post I referred to those systems "being developed" by Russia and China, not those currently fielded.

The 30mm cannon can still be effective against modern armor. While it can't penetrate frontal armor, the sides/top as well as external equipments of the tank are still highly vulnerable to damage. You don't have to defeat the frontal armor to put a tank out of commission. A single 30mm round to the engine compartment and that tank is immobilized. Take out the thermal sight and optics and that tank is nothing more than a combat ineffective tractor.

Again, trying to get a 30mm to pen the engine compartment of even a late model T72 (ie. not an especially current platform) is a big ask for a Hog driver. This is for a few reasons:

- He/she has to get right into the engagement envelope (and quite possibly the No-Escape-Zone) of any local SHORAD systems to do so.

- Being "able to take a hit" is not a popular defensive tactic in USAF circles to the best of my knowledge.

- The effectiveness of the A10's countermeasures suite are steadily declining relative to the capabilities of the SHORAD systems that engage targets at this altitude.

- The chances of having the effects on-target that you mentioned are remote in the presence of ERA bricks covering areas of weaker armor.

- If all you're left with is taking out vulnerable peripherals then the GAU-8 isn't giving any more anti-tank capability than that possessed by the 20mm cannons on any other friendly combat aircraft in the area.

- He/she can have much more certainty of killing the tank outright by simply hitting it with a PGM, all without going below 15,000ft, and thereby staying out of SHORAD reach.
 
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But but but but the airforce saids the F-35 is the LOGICALLY the next step.

Actually CAS from 15,000ft+ is something even the most ardent of JSF critics would have to concede it is well suited for. The combination of APG81, DAS, EOTS, VLO, Barracuda and munitions like SDB should make it very potent in this area.

My only two concerns would be payload and loiter time. That said the former can probably be ameliorated with "miniaturized" munitions like SDB and the latter with the ADVENT engine it looks likely to receive post 2020.
 
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The A-10 was last produced in 1984.

Every single airframe in the inventory is over 30 years old. Those aren't bomber years, those are tactical airframe years. All these airframes are well past their original projected life cycles and in all reality, are approaching the end of their service lives.

If you want new airframes, where you gonna build them? Fairchild Aviation hasn't existed for over 10 years. Those production facilities don't exist anymore. The people who built the planes and the plant engineers who built the assembly works are dead or in nursing homes. Getting a production operation running again for every single part is an enormous undertaking, the costs of which are just as much, if not more than a modern clean sheet design.

The A-10 is a cool plane, but no amount of ten thousand word essays on Foxtrot Alpha are going to change the reality that the service life of those still in the inventory are numbered and that no more will ever be build. Economically, it's not going to happen.

They didn't want the A-10 in the first place. They have been trying to get rid of the A-10 since the 1980s and it keeps proving itself again and again. It was going to be replaced by helicopters which proved to be very vulnerable in desert conditions You can't count on CAS from high flying aircraft unless you want to kill a lot of friendlies. Precision guidance still requires someone seeing where the munitions are going in real time. It is fairly easy to jam radio signals in a local area

It would be very simple and cheap to set up a new line and build new A-10s compared to designing a series of new aircraft to find one that will do the job. They have tried for decades to replace the B-52 and haven't come up with anything that can do the job it does as efficiently as it does.
 
Sorry kids no using costs to argue against a new A10 program. Not given how much that pos useless f35 cost.
 
The 30mm cannon can still be effective against modern armor. While it can't penetrate frontal armor, the sides/top as well as external equipments of the tank are still highly vulnerable to damage. You don't have to defeat the frontal armor to put a tank out of commission. A single 30mm round to the engine compartment and that tank is immobilized. Take out the thermal sight and optics and that tank is nothing more than a combat ineffective tractor.

Can be when firing APFSDS rounds which the A-10 cant do. Not all AP rounds are made equal. I am pretty certain that even the 25 mm Bushmaster on a Bradley has superior armor penetration.
 
Actually CAS from 15,000ft+ is something even the most ardent of JSF critics would have to concede it is well suited for. The combination of APG81, DAS, EOTS, VLO, Barracuda and munitions like SDB should make it very potent in this area.

My only two concerns would be payload and loiter time. That said the former can probably be ameliorated with "miniaturized" munitions like SDB and the latter with the ADVENT engine it looks likely to receive post 2020.

i thought this engine was ment for the 6th generation fighter program.
 
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