Social Netflix Originals are pretty cookie cutter these days...

Sure, that much is true for anyone. But I generally consider myself a leftist and I still notice and am sometimes bothered by it. I understand the sentiment behind it and the intentions are good but in practice it can be painfully obvious when its just corporate approved identity politics shoved in for the inevitable media buzz. This corporate approach to diversity doesn't always miss the mark to be fair; the only white characters in Lilo and Stitch are annoying tourists and Lilo's classmate who is a bitch. But I can't recall anyone ever complaining about that because it makes sense in the context of the film's setting and the film itself isn't forcing some topical political commentary(though there was some social commentary that was cut from the film).
I think @Jack V Savage 's point is that when you're expecting a stereotype and are presented with something that contradicts that stereotype, it's going to stand out to you - whether you're a leftie or a rightie. That's the general issue with stereotypes - that they influence the thoughts of people even when those people don't necessarily agree with the stereotypes themselves.

The questions people should be asking themselves are "Why does this presentation bother me?" and "What is objectively wrong with this vs. subjectively?"

I like to start with extremes and work backwards to evaluate where the root of people's concerns lie. In this case, consider this: Even if they took every television show and replaced the leads with minorities and women - what is objectively wrong with that? Subjectively?

Once you have that answer, you can work backwards to this question: "What is the percentage of minorities and women that would negate the concerns I have with the previous question (all minorities and/or female leads)?"

Then you when you find that specific percentage, you can ask yourself "Why that percentage?"

Work through that rubric and you have place from which to evaluate your own preferences and the preferences of others.
 
I think @Jack V Savage 's point is that when you're expecting a stereotype and are presented with something that contradicts that stereotype, it's going to stand out to you - whether you're a leftie or a rightie. That's the general issue with stereotypes - that they influence the thoughts of people even when those people don't necessarily agree with the stereotypes themselves.
The problem isn't that these characters are subverting stereotypes, the problem is the exact opposite; they are created from a corporate approved mold that advances a stale sort of pop liberalism.
The questions people should be asking themselves are "Why does this presentation bother me?" and "What is objectively wrong with this vs. subjectively?"

I like to start with extremes and work backwards to evaluate where the root of people's concerns lie. In this case, consider this: Even if they took every television show and replaced the leads with minorities and women - what is objectively wrong with that? Subjectively?

Once you have that answer, you can work backwards to this question: "What is the percentage of minorities and women that would negate the concerns I have with the previous question (all minorities and/or female leads)?"

Then you when you find that specific percentage, you can ask yourself "Why that percentage?"

Work through that rubric and you have place from which to evaluate your own preferences and the preferences of others.
The problem isn't with the proportion of minorities. As I said earlier I like to explore foreign media so I like to watch media that is full of "minorities" which I put in quotes because of course a Spanish film full of Spanish people marketed to a Spanish audiences isn't full of minorities from the perspective of the Spanish.

In fact when it comes to representation I prefer when the work in question just makes the whole cast of this or that group. So a show where virtually every major character is black is better than one black character because in the latter, that one character comes to represent black people and is therefore usually a kind of stale, safe character. But if the protagonist, deuteragonist, and antagonist are all black that pressure is removed and they can all be their own characters who may or may not be informed by their race without having to represent their race.

The kind of show I am complaining about is the one that tries to have a diverse cast but in the end reduces most of them to that kind of stale, safe character I alluded to earlier that represents their group with a corporate approved image. That doesn't really interest me.
 
The problem isn't that these characters are subverting stereotypes, the problem is the exact opposite; they are created from a corporate approved mold that advances a stale sort of pop liberalism.
What does that mean? American culture has always advanced corporate approved molds - think Marlboro Man and 80's action heroes and 90's sitcoms.

I'm not sure what pop liberalism is or how it's corporate mold would be a departure from what we've always seen beyonf the diversity of characters presented.

The problem isn't with the proportion of minorities. As I said earlier I like to explore foreign media so I like to watch media that is full of "minorities" which I put in quotes because of course a Spanish film full of Spanish people marketed to a Spanish audiences isn't full of minorities from the perspective of the Spanish.

In fact when it comes to representation I prefer when the work in question just makes the whole cast of this or that group. So a show where virtually every major character is black is better than one black character because in the latter, that one character comes to represent black people and is therefore usually a kind of stale, safe character. But if the protagonist, deuteragonist, and antagonist are all black that pressure is removed and they can all be their own characters who may or may not be informed by their race without having to represent their race.

The kind of show I am complaining about is the one that tries to have a diverse cast but in the end reduces most of them to that kind of stale, safe character I alluded to earlier that represents their group with a corporate approved image. That doesn't really interest me.

I don't want to misrepresent but you're saying you prefer that the characters presented all be the same race rather than a variety of races? Coupled with the assertion that the diversity of characters is undermined because they always play the same role?

I want to be clear on that before I respond to it.
 
What does that mean? American culture has always advanced corporate approved molds - think Marlboro Man and 80's action heroes and 90's sitcoms.

I'm not sure what pop liberalism is or how it's corporate mold would be a departure from what we've always seen beyonf the diversity of characters presented.
Yes you are right, there has always been a corporate approved mold in media. And its often the work that breaks the mold that tends to get remembered.

When I say pop liberalism I mean the kind corporate approved liberalism you see in pop culture.
I don't want to misrepresent but you're saying you prefer that the characters presented all be the same race rather than a variety of races? Coupled with the assertion that the diversity of characters is undermined because they always play the same role?

I want to be clear on that before I respond to it.
I don't really care about the exact proportion of this or that race but I have noticed that when a work seeks to be representative of some group, it tends to work better when most of the cast is from that one group. When only one character is black or Asian that one character tends to(but of course not always) become representative of that one race which can lead to safer, stale characters.

That's not always the case of course. Mean Girls has a diverse cast, its core character are mostly girls, and it has feminist messaging but I think its a pretty good movie.
 
I think @Jack V Savage 's point is that when you're expecting a stereotype and are presented with something that contradicts that stereotype

The problem occurs with what is forced and what isn't. Also, quality. Nobody(well, maybe not nobody) would think anything of the push for diversity, or whatever, if the final product was quality. Nobody is complaining about a female lead in "Alien" or "Kill Bill" for instance.

People have a nose for trendy forced tripe, however, and if that agenda sticks out more than anything, it's going to be recognized.
 
I was looking for something to watch on there the other night and it did seem to have a lot of gay and or minority options. Not that I watch much Netflix other than Ozark. That show is the tits.
 
True so the problem is not necessarily a lack of realism. For instance, we all know dinosaurs are extinct and its pretty much impossible to bring them back. And yet Jurassic Park was a huge hit despite this, why? Because the film could convince us that they were real, they felt real when we were watching them.

Watching a 115lb actress use spinning shit to take out three guys, all much bigger than her, is not just unrealistic in a rational sense but, more importantly, in a visual sense; as a viewer I find it hard to maintain my suspension of disbelief when the action scene is so unconvincing. The same thing applies to old people; imagine seeing Patrick Stewart doing flippy shit in a fight scene, it wouldn't be all that convincing.

These kinds of scenes work better in animation where the characters and the world aren't bound by biology and physics. In a comic or cartoon there's no reason a female or elderly character can't, in a visual sense, convincingly deliver action in a way that a male character can. At that point one it only makes sense to complain if the work in questions attempts to have a realistic and grounded story otherwise.
The problem becomes then a misunderstanding of physics and biology by the general population. Two guys hitting each other with iron bars and fighting for more than 5 minutes is not realistic, yet nobody has a problem with it.

You make a good point about visual realism, but to actually complain about it and cry about lack of realism is just silly to me.

Comic book moves also defy biological realism, but I'm guessing you'll make an exception there.

My main problem with female leads in action movies etc, is that they fight like ballerinas and the main focus is the "sexiness" of the fights. They break guys' necks between their thighs, they wear high heals...It's all just a metaphor for sex.

So perhaps this is where a lot of the time female action movie stars don't have the same effect; the intent is different too.

I want to see female leads be buff and give left hooks.
 
That's appreciable, but some of the Netflix originals, "Birdbox" and the zombie series, "Black Summer" have a healthy dose of subversive anti-whiteness.

Black summer is literally “white man bad” with zombies.
 
The problem becomes then a misunderstanding of physics and biology by the general population. Two guys hitting each other with iron bars and fighting for more than 5 minutes is not realistic, yet nobody has a problem with it.
When I say realistic I really mean the optics of it, not whether its actually possible or not. The optics of two guys beating the shit out of each other with iron bars is cool and believable if done right. A woman the size of Michelle Waterson or an old man like Clint Eastwood beating up a man the size of Alistair Overeem is a harder sell in terms of the optics. It takes more effort to make it believable because you basically need special effects to make the scene work unless you're willing to settle for clunky choreography.
You make a good point about visual realism, but to actually complain about it and cry about lack of realism is just silly to me.

Comic book moves also defy biological realism, but I'm guessing you'll make an exception there.
Again when I say biological realism I just mean the optics of seeing frail people beat up bigger, stronger people. In a comic an illustrator isn't bound by these optics as much, they have more control.

However there are exceptions. Kill Bill is a good one. Some good action in those films, especially the 2nd IMO, and its mainly fighting between women. The tone of the film just allows for it better and of course Tarantino is just great at over the top unrealistic action so if anyone can do great chick fight scenes its him. But me personally I don't think any of the MCU chicks have fight scenes as good as anything in Kill Bill.
My main problem with female leads in action movies etc, is that they fight like ballerinas and the main focus is the "sexiness" of the fights. They break guys' necks between their thighs, they wear high heals...It's all just a metaphor for sex.

So perhaps this is where a lot of the time female action movie stars don't have the same effect; the intent is different too.

I want to see female leads be buff and give left hooks.
That is a good point as well.
 
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The problem occurs with what is forced and what isn't. Also, quality. Nobody(well, maybe not nobody) would think anything of the push for diversity, or whatever, if the final product was quality. Nobody is complaining about a female lead in "Alien" or "Kill Bill" for instance.

People have a nose for trendy forced tripe, however, and if that agenda sticks out more than anything, it's going to be recognized.
"Forced" is a contrived position, no offense intended. It's all forced. TV shows don't spring up organically. There's a casting process, agent -studio dynamics, etc. None of it happens naturally. How many times have you felt that Hollywood was shoving some particular actor or actress down our throats?

Speaking just for myself - there was a period of time when Hollywood cast Jennifer Lawrence in, what felt like, everything. My personal pet peeve being how over-saturated she was in the X-Men movies. That, to me, is an example of H-Wood forcing something but no one goes out of their way to criticize it because we recognize that's how Hollywood works.

I also question the quality argument for the following reason - Hollywood made a lot of shit-tier films and tv shows before the diversity presence.

This goes back to @Jack V Savage's point about selective memories, imo. People are taking the same old thing that Hollywood has always done and are casting it as a new course of action when the only thing that has changed in the model is more diverse representation on screen.
 
Yes you are right, there has always been a corporate approved mold in media. And its often the work that breaks the mold that tends to get remembered.

When I say pop liberalism I mean the kind corporate approved liberalism you see in pop culture.

That still doesn't tell me what pop liberalism is. Pop culture itself isn't "liberalism" or "conservatism", it's simply popular culture. I'm not trying to be difficult but there's mainstream and niche. Mainstream is what comprises popular culture, aka "pop culture", and niche comprises everything else. Spiderman is mainstream, The Watchmen are niche. Both are comic book series that have been made into movies. Jay-Z is mainstream/pop culture, Joell Ortiz is niche. Both are NYC styled rappers.

Additionally, it's not just the work that breaks the mold that gets remembered, it's also the styles that become so ubiquitous that they come to define a genre - they becomes an expectation.

I don't really care about the exact proportion of this or that race but I have noticed that when a work seeks to be representative of some group, it tends to work better when most of the cast is from that one group. When only one character is black or Asian that one character tends to(but of course not always) become representative of that one race which can lead to safer, stale characters.

That's not always the case of course. Mean Girls has a diverse cast, its core character are mostly girls, and it has feminist messaging but I think its a pretty good movie.

But what if a work isn't seeking to be representative of some group? Which I think is getting to the core of the conversation and how the issue of stereotyping influences it. They write a detergent commercial and cast a black person, a white person, and an Asian person. The commercial script isn't seeking to be representative of any group, it's simply selling detergent. The casting agency or the brand wants diversity in actors for marketing purposes. Those 2 things can exist without blending. The individual person in the detergent commercial doesn't have to have some higher purpose beyond using detergent.

Swinging back to television shows and movies, it's the same thing. And very much what @Jack V Savage was alluding to. Some movie has 3 friends and they're all different races, none of those 3 people have to be representative of some group - they simply are. However, it is the viewers who respond to the imagery. They are the ones who say "Casting that person in that role feels off to me for some reason. It's not what I expected therefore there must be something wrong."

To create a hypo - it would like a tv show casting an Arabic person as a Christian priest in an otherwise largely white cast. There's nothing wrong about it but because we're conditioned to think of Arabic people as Muslim, many people who find the casting strange. Not because Arabic people cannot be Christian priests but because it challenges their internalized expectations.

As you said, you'd prefer that they largely all be the same race - that Arabic Christian priest be cast in a largely Arabic production. But that simply reinforces the stereotypes. It says that these people can only take on these roles in narrow settings. When that person leaves the ethnic homogeneity of their community, they should revert back to expected roles.

The black doctor is expected in an all black cast but not in a majority white cast. But if the black doctor is an acceptable role for the black actor, it shouldn't matter what the rest of the cast look likes for the audience to be okay with it.
 
"Forced" is a contrived position, no offense intended. It's all forced. TV shows don't spring up organically. There's a casting process, agent -studio dynamics, etc. None of it happens naturally. How many times have you felt that Hollywood was shoving some particular actor or actress down our throats?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about social themes being poorly implemented into film, that come across heavy handed and forced. You can make an agenda driven film, but you can't treat the audience like idiots while doing it. If it comes across as preachy, instead of a more natural implementation, it's going to stick out and come across cheesy and unrealistic.

I also question the quality argument for the following reason - Hollywood made a lot of shit-tier films and tv shows before the diversity presence.

This doesn't have anything to do with my point. I'm saying if you want to push an agenda in film, you can get away with it more if the movie is genuinely good and can be enjoyed on a cinematic level. You can make a feminist movie, or whatever, as long as it is genuinely engaging, and not "Feminism: The Movie". Nothing is worse than forced, ham-fisted social commentary in a movie. It's not that the message is necessarily bad, it's that the messenger can't relay it without beating you over the head with puddle deep commentary on the issue.
 
My main problem with female leads in action movies etc, is that they fight like ballerinas and the main focus is the "sexiness" of the fights. They break guys' necks between their thighs, they wear high heals...It's all just a metaphor for sex.

With that Charlize Theron movie (Atomic Blonde), Lucy with ScarJo, and then that other one coming out soon about the Russian model you can tell Hollywood is almost desperately trying to make a female version of these two:



BUT mostly of Wick. I remember going to see the 3rd Wick movie and this trailer ran:


And my buddy and I looked at each other and he's like:
"That looks retarded"
"They want a female John Wick so bad they're trying a third time"

I have no issue with strong female leads even in action type roles (Charlize Theron was a damn good character in the newest Mad Max, Winnick in Vikings also comes to mind) the problem I have is when it feels like such an obvious rip-off of what is NOW an established character/universe... just with two tits and a vajeen instead of a sausage and two beans.

For every one movie with a strong female lead theres like 1000 of the opposite, you're putting too much thought into this. Don't like it don't watch it, that's what i do.
The Netflix shows as a whole feel like they've taken a tumble in quality though lately.

I'm talking like acting, editing, and like visual quality never mind the scripts and stories.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about social themes being poorly implemented into film, that come across heavy handed and forced. You can make an agenda driven film, but you can't treat the audience like idiots while doing it. If it comes across as preachy, instead of a more natural implementation, it's going to stick out and come across cheesy and unrealistic.

Social themes? Like how every sitcom had a child abuse episode, a drugs episode, a drinking episode, etc. It never hurt Hollywood in the past, I don't see how it would hurt them now. Moreover, we're not even talking about themes - we're largely talking about casting.

When someone complains about the female character beating up some dude, they're not complaining about a social theme - they're complaining that the actor cast as the winner of the fight is female. They're not complaining that the theme of one person beating up another person is poorly implemented - why would they? They approve the theme of physical violence in action movies, spy flicks, etc. without blinking. They disapprove of how the actors are cast.

Yet, we're MMA fans. We know that women sometimes beat men in very narrow circumstances. There was just a video about some Brazilian female fighter who fought off a man trying to steal her bag. I simply cannot believe that the argument for these things is that they don't happen in real life or that movies should adhere to more real life portrayals of things when people willingly sit through Fast and the Furious films, the original Star Wars, etc. which make very large departures from reality.



This doesn't have anything to do with my point. I'm saying if you want to push an agenda in film, you can get away with it more if the movie is genuinely good and can be enjoyed on a cinematic level. You can make a feminist movie, or whatever, as long as it is genuinely engaging, and not "Feminism: The Movie". Nothing is worse than forced, ham-fisted social commentary in a movie. It's not that the message is necessarily bad, it's that the messenger can't relay it without beating you over the head with puddle deep commentary on the issue.
But my comment is exactly in line with your point. Hollywood has been making over the top, low quality, preachy films for it's entire history. The presence of more diverse actors/actresses/themes hasn't changed that. Good movies get remembered, bad ones get forgotten. Preachy-ness isn't a new thing.

Guess Who's Coming to Dinner - preachy but memorable while all the other films who tried to make the same points are forgotten. Thelma and Louise - preachy but memorable while all the other films who tried to make the same points are forgotten. The "final girl" has been killing monsters in horror movies for decades. No one had an issue with Friday the 13th when Jason killed a bunch of dudes but gets stopped by a chick or Mike Myers or the Nightmare on Elm Street movies

That's the point I keep making - none of this is new for Hollywood except that they're using more diverse actors/actresses to make the films.
 
Netflix was on a roll up until 2 years ago w/

House of Cards seasons 1 and 2
Daredevil season 1 and parts of season 2
Stranger Things season 1 (s2 sucked)
Luke Cage part of season 1
Jessica Jones season 1
Mindhunter
Punisher season 1

Now they are boring.
 
Social themes? Like how every sitcom had a child abuse episode, a drugs episode, a drinking episode, etc. It never hurt Hollywood in the past, I don't see how it would hurt them now. Moreover, we're not even talking about themes - we're largely talking about casting.

You guys might be. I'm not one to lose my shit over a female lead in an action movie. The movie has to be good though, which is more to my point. Even if it's not though, I'm not one to take "realism" into account in an action film and start taking issue with the gender of the lead. "John Wick" isn't anymore realistic than "Kill Bill" or "Lucy" for instance.

I don't really analyze action movies in any sense of pure realism, down to doing a tale of the tape of the protagonist and all the villains. If the choreography is good, then it's good. A good action scene is a good action scene. It could be a child kicking ass for all I care, as long the action is well put together.


But my comment is exactly in line with your point. Hollywood has been making over the top, low quality, preachy films for it's entire history. The presence of more diverse actors/actresses/themes hasn't changed that. Good movies get remembered, bad ones get forgotten. Preachy-ness isn't a new thing.

That's essentially what I'm saying. A good movie is a good movie. I should've specified I guess. You can be preachy to a degree, as long as the movie is genuinely good. That's what I meant when I said at the end of the day, it's about quality. They usually don't go hand in hand though, and you need a skilled hand to properly implement the message into the film, even it is an on the nose one.

I will agree that some people are noticing shit around every corner now, even if it's not. It's just the culture we're in, I guess. I can only imagine how the live action version of "Y: The Last Man" will be initially received by the good old internet.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about social themes being poorly implemented into film, that come across heavy handed and forced. You can make an agenda driven film, but you can't treat the audience like idiots while doing it. If it comes across as preachy, instead of a more natural implementation, it's going to stick out and come across cheesy and unrealistic.

Bad art is bad art. That's fine. It's nothing new or unique to any particular outlook, though. And we have more high-quality content now than we ever have.
 
Bad art is bad art. That's fine. It's nothing new or unique to any particular outlook, though. And we have more high-quality content now than we ever have.

It's proportional. We've got more content, period. There's a lot more shit out there too.
 
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