NBA NBA Thread: Gamble Gate

[Unknown Pleasures]

 

[Sweater of AV]

An entire playoff game broken down as simple as possible.



Hakeem is one of the greatest defenders in history, if not the greatest, and we've got people trying to claim this can is a better defender. Shit's so comically stupid I don't even know what to say anymore.

DREAM bless.

 

[Natural Order]

Jesus Christ, watching these two stick-men is like watching something out of a horror sci-fi movie.

Who every thought Manute Bol would become the prototype frame of the 2025 NBA center?

 

[Possum Jenkins]

He played for a shit Bucks team and got them their first ring. Was he also lucky when he won 3 consecutive NCAA Championships? Or when he won State Championships in high school before that? Kareem won Championships at every level, and with every team.

Yeah, he carried a shit team to a ring, which is what great players do. If Magic went elsewhere, he may have gotten 1 more ring because he was, you know, a great player. But it's extremely unlikely he gets close to 6 rings if his team doesn't draft a top-10 all-timer and stays with him for his entire prime.

The college and high school stuff is irrelevant.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

I already have Jokic over Hakeem and in my opinion INEC.

Hakeem's....
A much worse passer (up against GOAT or near GOAT).
Worse decision maker (up against GOAT or near GOAT)..
Worse free throw shooter.
Can't lead a rush.
Significantly worse field goal percentage despite not being nearly the outside threat and shot taker.
Hakeem had like 25 three pointers in his career let alone a viable option for shot clock expiring type shots while not in the post.
Jokic destroys him in pretty much all advanced metrics (after only like 10 seasons in the league versus Hakeem's 18 or so) and a higher defensive IQ in terms of play anticipation and court mapping.
And Jokic plays in a deeper global era with probably 5x the amount of foreign players and higher quality ones.

Olajuwon has significantly better defensive execution in terms of blocks and rim-protection advantage that are great assets and really his only even debatable advantage, but at the same time we now know is an overrated metric in today's evolved game where the offenses are stretched out and so many players are 3 point threats (and steals historically underrated though Olajuwon was very good here too of course) much like how the perimeter two pointer was overrated in the past. Really it seems the Olajuwon argument would be a reskinned Embiid > Jokic argument 76ers fans used to promote but we saw what all that amazing rim-protection has done for the 76ers despite having deeper talent than Denver.

Most people don't realize Denver has never been able to improve defensively when Jokic sits. It gets SIGNIFICANTLY worse and that goes across Javale Maghee, Deandre Jordan, Demarcus Cousins, etc, some of whom are defensive oriented etc. Part of that deals with transition play where the team is generally less coordinated offensively which leads to high transition points for the defense, but a part of it is Jokic actively instructing defenses on how to position and what plays are coming and doing little things like baiting offenses into taking shots that are pleasing.

And last but not least, Jokic is likely the player in history who can least afford to foul out of a game with hopes of his team winning giving the absolutely ridiculous on/off metrics in his career.

And would add Hakeem was int hat best player/MVP discussion for 2 years, maybe 3 at best. Jokic is double that already and still going without signs of slowing down (yet).

I gotta admit, Fat Serb's overall offensive game is a level above Hakeem's.

But Hakeem's defensive presence is approximately 38 levels above FS's.

You could argue those two even themselves out so rings are the tiebreaker and 2 > 1.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I gotta admit, Fat Serb's overall offensive game is a level above Hakeem's.

But Hakeem's defensive presence is approximately 38 levels above FS's.

You could argue those two even themselves out so rings are the tiebreaker and 2 > 1.

People can argue anything. Backing it with anything resembling data or evidence is another thing.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Yeah, he carried a shit team to a ring, which is what great players do. If Magic went elsewhere, he may have gotten 1 more ring because he was, you know, a great player. But it's extremely unlikely he gets close to 6 rings if his team doesn't draft a top-10 all-timer and stays with him for his entire prime.

The college and high school stuff is irrelevant.

Oscar Robertson was also on that team. The dude literally finished top 5 in MVP voting as well and is considered top 15ish GOAT players, and top 3 point guards of all time. That's one hell of a Robin for a Batman of a center to have for a "shit team".

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Who every thought Manute Bol would become the prototype frame of the 2025 NBA center?

I'd be ultra curious to know for these young guys what kind of analysis do they do to decide what kind of weight training they should do. With the amount of money at stake they certainly must have doctors and nutritionists piping up in addition to agents.

 

[MusterX]

Yeah, he carried a shit team to a ring, which is what great players do. If Magic went elsewhere, he may have gotten 1 more ring because he was, you know, a great player. But it's extremely unlikely he gets close to 6 rings if his team doesn't draft a top-10 all-timer and stays with him for his entire prime.

The college and high school stuff is irrelevant.

Yea, maybe he doesn't get 6, probably he doesn't get 6, but that's how sports is. He won 4 state championships in high school, amassing 71 consecutive wins. He then won 3 consecutive NCAA Championships in college and was so dominant they banned dunking the ball. He's probably the greatest college player of all time. Then he won 6 ships in the NBA. If you want to talk about lifelong winners, Kareem is one of the best examples ever.

 

[wildchild88]

I already have Jokic over Hakeem and in my opinion INEC.

Hakeem's....
A much worse passer (up against GOAT or near GOAT).
Worse decision maker (up against GOAT or near GOAT)..
Worse free throw shooter.
Can't lead a rush.
Significantly worse field goal percentage despite not being nearly the outside threat and shot taker.
Hakeem had like 25 three pointers in his career let alone a viable option for shot clock expiring type shots while not in the post.
Jokic destroys him in pretty much all advanced metrics (after only like 10 seasons in the league versus Hakeem's 18 or so) and a higher defensive IQ in terms of play anticipation and court mapping.
And Jokic plays in a deeper global era with probably 5x the amount of foreign players and higher quality ones.

Olajuwon has significantly better defensive execution in terms of blocks and rim-protection advantage that are great assets and really his only even debatable advantage, but at the same time we now know is an overrated metric in today's evolved game where the offenses are stretched out and so many players are 3 point threats (and steals historically underrated though Olajuwon was very good here too of course) much like how the perimeter two pointer was overrated in the past. Really it seems the Olajuwon argument would be a reskinned Embiid > Jokic argument 76ers fans used to promote but we saw what all that amazing rim-protection has done for the 76ers despite having deeper talent than Denver.

Most people don't realize Denver has never been able to improve defensively when Jokic sits. It gets SIGNIFICANTLY worse and that goes across Javale Maghee, Deandre Jordan, Demarcus Cousins, etc, some of whom are defensive oriented etc. Part of that deals with transition play where the team is generally less coordinated offensively which leads to high transition points for the defense, but a part of it is Jokic actively instructing defenses on how to position and what plays are coming and doing little things like baiting offenses into taking shots that are pleasing.

And last but not least, Jokic is likely the player in history who can least afford to foul out of a game with hopes of his team winning giving the absolutely ridiculous on/off metrics in his career.

And would add Hakeem was int hat best player/MVP discussion for 2 years, maybe 3 at best. Jokic is double that already and still going without signs of slowing down (yet).

Jokic is a 7ft chess master, he creates so much offense / open shots it’s mind boggling. He does this while not being a ball hog. His defence isnt great, but it’s not an Achilles heel / egregious imo.

I like Hakeem a lot, but I’m the age of the 3 a proportion of his game isnt going to be as useful.

As an aside Hakeems been saying that Wemby will be the GOAT defender by a country mile if he can stay on the court.

 

[wildchild88]

I'd be ultra curious to know for these young guys what kind of analysis do they do to decide what kind of weight training they should do. With the amount of money at stake they certainly must have doctors and nutritionists piping up in addition to agents.

Was reading about this the other day.

High intensity weight training can only be done in the off season.

These guys cant be maxing to failure with many sets through the week. Too much hypertrophy is dangerous because 1.) too much muscle fatigue during games, slows them down and they get tired. 2.) big injury risk if you’re playing big minutes on sore muscles.

Weight lifting training sessions are short and targeted.

In the off season is when they can really focus on building strength / other athletic improvements intensively.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Jokic is a 7ft chess master, he creates so much offense / open shots it’s mind boggling. He does this while not being a ball hog. His defence isnt great, but it’s not an Achilles heel / egregious imo.

I like Hakeem a lot, but I’m the age of the 3 a proportion of his game isnt going to be as useful.

As an aside Hakeems been saying that Wemby will be the GOAT defender by a country mile if he can stay on the court.

Wemby has a chance to be a standout given the windspan and agility, but I don't know what to say, the game is really heavily tilted to favoring offense since in this era it feels like most everyone can drain a three to the point that contested threes of today go in at the same pace as much more poorly contested / completely wide open threes in the past, and travelling just ain't called like it use to be, and foul baiting/referee manipulation is much higher.

Last thing I'll say about Jokic, but what also doesn't do him any favors is his very unconventional slow rise from being a non-descript player drafted in the second round to best in the game. He was 5 or 6 years into his career and actual commentators and analysts really weren't aware how good he was while pretty much all other NBA all-time greats get hyped from often before the draft is even done. And in this era of media, it is true no pundits get popular talking about Denver. But he is legit pretty much consensus best player in the world for 5+ years and counting in a row, and top 2 MVP 5 years in a row and counting and that's a tiny tiny miniscule list of people who can claim that.

Well, second last thing, Jokic just hurt his knee it seems after getting stepped on by his own player; looked pretty bad. Denver down to just Murray as a healthy starter LOL.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Was reading about this the other day.

High intensity weight training can only be done in the off season.

These guys cant be maxing to failure with many sets through the week. Too much hypertrophy is dangerous because 1.) too much muscle fatigue during games, slows them down and they get tired. 2.) big injury risk if you’re playing big minutes on sore muscles.

Weight lifting training sessions are short and targeted.

In the off season is when they can really focus on building strength / other athletic improvements intensively.

Wemby's height with Shaq's width is what the world needs to see in the next generation.

 

[wildchild88]

Wemby's height with Shaq's width is what the world needs to see in the next generation.

Maybe, but too much size is a deficiency for endurance. Plus playing on hard floors is havoc for those joints.

I feel like Giannis with shooting and a bag of tricks is the final form. (More skill full / aggressive Giannis)

You want a big man that can run the floor on high minutes in the play offs, like Wilt did.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Maybe, but too much size is a deficiency for endurance. Plus playing on hard floors is havoc for those joints.

I feel like Giannis with shooting and a bag of tricks is the final form. (More skill full / aggressive Giannis)

You want a big man that can run the floor on high minutes in the play offs, like Wilt did.

I was sayhing that tongue in cheek, tho i honestly would think that if everything is built to proportion it shouldn[t be any worse chance of injury. But really don't know

 

[Sweater of AV]

The 3-ball era.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Lmao.

 

[MusterX]

Uh oh

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Uh oh

Yeppers, down to one healthy starter. I'm optimistic though that that wasn't an ACL type injury. He seemed to be shaking it off somewhat decently before going to the dressing room.

 

[MusterX]

Yeppers, down to one healthy starter. I'm optimistic though that that wasn't an ACL type injury. He seemed to be shaking it off somewhat decently before going to the dressing room.

Here is a different angle, looks like a bit of a hyperextended knee to me.