my thoughts on newaza randori vs. a judo 3rd dan

[Auspex]

I'm glad to be part of a club that essentially ignores IJF all together.

I'm really the only one that competes and I've been around long enough to be able to apply the rules, but I don't want my learning (which is far more important to me than competing) to be hindered by ever changing rules.

 

[Gabicho]

Speaking of judo ne-waza:
What's BJJ'ers take on kesa gatame? Particularly advanced belts.

Since i'm more of a sambo practitioner that happens to train BJJ, i use kesa gatame often, because i end up there after some of my best throws and also because i'm good at getting the armlock from the position.
However, two BJJ Blackbelts have insisted that i shouldn't ever use kesa gatame or i'll get my back taken. They say that if i end up in kesa, i should transition to north-south or kuzure kesa gatame, or i'll go to BJJ hell for giving up my back.

One of them tried to prove the point by having me apply kesa on him, and then he proceeded to take my back. But, in my eyes it hardly proved anyhing, because from mount, side control, north south or half-guard, he'd just sweep me, choke me silly or sub me in 1/10th the time it took him to escape kesa and take my back. In kesa, i was able to hold him for quite a bit of time (even after i knew it was inevitable he was taking my back, i slowed him down).
Against people of my about my skill level and weight, they never get out (many don't even seem to know the proper basic escapes, contrary to all judoka/sambist i've known). It even gives fits to people who are a lot better than me; even if i can't submit them, they have a hard time escaping unless i make a mistake.
I don't like just holding them down when it's obvious i can't submit them and then i just transition to something else, but if it was a match with points, and i was winning, it's a fantastic pinning position, and great to drain your opponent's energy, or just to plain out stall.
IMO, it's one of the positions where judoka and sambist have a great advantage against SOME jujiteros. Because of the pins, judoka and sambist emphazise training the position and the escapes, whereas SOME jujiteros neglect them entirely because the pins are non-existant in BJJ and you supposedly risk getting your back taken.

Summary: Getting out of a proper kesa gatame applied by a judoka can be a nightmare, even if you are in no risk of being submitted whatsoever.

So what say you? Kesa gatame for BJJ, yay or nay?

 

[Jaxx]

Speaking of judo ne-waza:
What's BJJ'ers take on kesa gatame? Particularly advanced belts.

Since i'm more of a sambo practitioner that happens to train BJJ, i use kesa gatame often, because i end up there after some of my best throws and also because i'm good at getting the armlock from the position.
However, two BJJ Blackbelts have insisted that i shouldn't ever use kesa gatame or i'll get my back taken. They say that if i end up in kesa, i should transition to north-south or kuzure kesa gatame, or i'll go to BJJ hell for giving up my back.

One of them tried to prove the point by having me apply kesa on him, and then he proceeded to take my back. But, in my eyes it hardly proved anyhing, because from mount, side control, north south or half-guard, he'd just sweep me, choke me silly or sub me in 1/10th the time it took him to escape kesa and take my back. In kesa, i was able to hold him for quite a bit of time (even after i knew it was inevitable he was taking my back, i slowed him down).
Against people of my about my skill level and weight, they never get out (many don't even seem to know the proper basic escapes, contrary to all judoka/sambist i've known). It even gives fits to people who are a lot better than me; even if i can't submit them, they have a hard time escaping unless i make a mistake.
I don't like just holding them down when it's obvious i can't submit them and then i just transition to something else, but if it was a match with points, and i was winning, it's a fantastic pinning position, and great to drain your opponent's energy, or just to plain out stall.
IMO, it's one of the positions where judoka and sambist have a great advantage against SOME jujiteros. Because of the pins, judoka and sambist emphazise training the position and the escapes, whereas SOME jujiteros neglect them entirely because the pins are non-existant in BJJ and you supposedly risk getting your back taken.

Summary: Getting out of a proper kesa gatame applied by a judoka can be a nightmare, even if you are in no risk of being submitted whatsoever.

So what say you? Kesa gatame for BJJ, yay or nay?

Not a BJJ'er but agree with everything you have said.

 

[HomerPlata]

Speaking of judo ne-waza:
What's BJJ'ers take on kesa gatame? Particularly advanced belts.

Since i'm more of a sambo practitioner that happens to train BJJ, i use kesa gatame often, because i end up there after some of my best throws and also because i'm good at getting the armlock from the position.
However, two BJJ Blackbelts have insisted that i shouldn't ever use kesa gatame or i'll get my back taken. They say that if i end up in kesa, i should transition to north-south or kuzure kesa gatame, or i'll go to BJJ hell for giving up my back.

One of them tried to prove the point by having me apply kesa on him, and then he proceeded to take my back. But, in my eyes it hardly proved anyhing, because from mount, side control, north south or half-guard, he'd just sweep me, choke me silly or sub me in 1/10th the time it took him to escape kesa and take my back. In kesa, i was able to hold him for quite a bit of time (even after i knew it was inevitable he was taking my back, i slowed him down).
Against people of my about my skill level and weight, they never get out (many don't even seem to know the proper basic escapes, contrary to all judoka/sambist i've known). It even gives fits to people who are a lot better than me; even if i can't submit them, they have a hard time escaping unless i make a mistake.
I don't like just holding them down when it's obvious i can't submit them and then i just transition to something else, but if it was a match with points, and i was winning, it's a fantastic pinning position, and great to drain your opponent's energy, or just to plain out stall.
IMO, it's one of the positions where judoka and sambist have a great advantage against SOME jujiteros. Because of the pins, judoka and sambist emphazise training the position and the escapes, whereas SOME jujiteros neglect them entirely because the pins are non-existant in BJJ and you supposedly risk getting your back taken.

Summary: Getting out of a proper kesa gatame applied by a judoka can be a nightmare, even if you are in no risk of being submitted whatsoever.

So what say you? Kesa gatame for BJJ, yay or nay?

My ex-bird used to do Judo. One night she held me in kesa gatame for literally 25 mins until I got close enough to the couch so I could use my feet to help escape. Not one of my finer moments. :redface:

 

[Auspex]

So what say you? Kesa gatame for BJJ, yay or nay?

I vote yay!

But, with any technique, understand when your losing your position so you can transition out of it.

I am able to catch some cool arm bars from Kesa, or am able to move into arm triangles.

Just don't stay there and hang out. Your back will get taken.

 

[Gabicho]

I vote yay!

But, with any technique, understand when your losing your position so you can transition out of it.

I am able to catch some cool arm bars from Kesa, or am able to move into arm triangles.

Just don't stay there and hang out. Your back will get taken.

I think it's more common to see people getting flipped/rolled over when applying a (poor) kesa gatame than them having their backs taken. And it happens to most people because they just won't let go of the grip when getting rolled over, instead of releasing and using the arms to post and defende position, and/or switching their hips.

What i'd like to see, is a BJJ blackbelt using kesa gatame on another BJJ blackbelt. Would he get his back taken? I say nay, unless he makes a mistake.

 

[Doctor Venture]

My BJJ instructor is also a Judo instructor, he has no problem with it. And believe me, you're not taking his back from his Kesa. It's not as if I haven't seen people try.


I'm just starting to play with the top game. I wind up in Kesa Gatame after a lot of throws. I more or less look to pass their arm over and go for Kata gatame or switch to N/S or a different side mount position. Basically because I have better subs from other side controls, and I don't care to pin anyone. I'd rather look for a finish.

 

[crackbaby420**]

i like when people put me in kesa gatame, it's easier to get out of than side control, im either goin to their back or if they defend that i just bump them up and bridge them over, plus im not too worried of being subbed though higher level guys can make the position hell 4 u

 

[Ryo]

I dont see Kesa Gatame as a position that puts u in danger of having your back taken if you good with it and understand how to apply it.

Let a good Judoka get Kesa Gatame on u and he's gonna smash.

 

[Auspex]

And there is a bit of a difference between the nogi kesa and gi kesa.

Nogi kesa is much easier to pass, although still hard against a good Judoka.

Gi kesa done by a qualified Judoka is one of the most annoying things to get caught in.

 

[Doctor Venture]

I dont see Kesa Gatame as a position that puts u in danger of having your back taken if you good with it and understand how to apply it.

Let a good Judoka get Kesa Gatame on u and he's gonna smash.

I cant tell you how many times I've had to tap or been on the verge of tapping to the pressure my Judo black belts can put on me. I don't think enough of the people here have really been in a good Judokas Kesa Gatame. It's crushing.

 

[futang17]

I cant tell you how many times I've had to tap or been on the verge of tapping to the pressure my Judo black belts can put on me. I don't think enough of the people here have really been in a good Judokas Kesa Gatame. It's crushing.

i agree! my sensei's kesa gatame was like a vice grip, felt like he weighed about 400 lbs

 

[Gabicho]

I cant tell you how many times I've had to tap or been on the verge of tapping to the pressure my Judo black belts can put on me. I don't think enough of the people here have really been in a good Judokas Kesa Gatame. It's crushing.

And when there's no rule to prevent neck cranks, it goes from "crushing" to "o mai god, i hate grappling, i should be doing tai chi instead!".

 

[Auspex]

While I agree with the above, you guys are talking about your BB instructors - Not your average Judoka.

BB's can generally get away with most things, they end up being more of the exception rather than the rule.

It certainly goes to show the potential usefulness of the techniqe, though

 

[killakoy]

judo is insanely cheap compared to bjj ($50 vs $100+), i train at tohkon judo. there's 3 guys from gracie barra that comes there too.

Try beating $20 / year.

I'm hoping you're comparison is right but it feels like its going to be tough goings while I'm a beginner. The part that is discouraging is that when we are doing tachi waza/randori I'm not even close to getting a throw, foot sweep, ankle pick, I mean nothing at all. Not even against kids, lol.

I'd suggest getting "The Canon of Judo" by Kyuzo Mifune. He breaks down the principles behind the throws that few other Judo books do. It truly exemplifies minimum force with maximum efficiency.

My ex-bird used to do Judo. One night she held me in kesa gatame for literally 25 mins until I got close enough to the couch so I could use my feet to help escape. Not one of my finer moments. :redface:

lol

i agree! my sensei's kesa gatame was like a vice grip, felt like he weighed about 400 lbs

A long time ago, Gokor put me in his Kesa Gatame and it was really a submission. I literally could not draw a breath in nor move to a position to alleviate this.