my thoughts on newaza randori vs. a judo 3rd dan

[Stun Gun]

I found judo guys to be very very random. I have rolled with some brown belts who were tougher then some blackbelt national champs (other countries not america). Theres some judokas with amazing groundgame and some lackluster, will be very random.

I am pretty sure in judo submissions on shoulder are actually illegal, but with kimuras and keylocks its hard to tell what the person taps from so they accept it.

and the worst part is that some judokas who have lackluster groundgame dissapoints me in a way how they defend a submission. Just like a video I saw in youtube.

 

[futang17]

and the worst part is that some judokas who have lackluster groundgame dissapoints me in a way how they defend a submission. Just like a video I saw in youtube.

i've experienced judokas who lock up the headlock and hang on for dear life inside the guard, of course sweeping them is easy and i try to hint to them that's not a good strategy but they said that they do it to stall so they can stand up again :/

 

[KahleyTriangles]

I recently joined a judo club in chicago to improve my stand up game. I had the opportunity to roll against one of the volunteer sensei who's a 3rd dan. here's my thoughts:

-I was able to pass his guard into side control, but he had amazing hip movement, i was amazed at how he was able to shrimp away from me when i had his side.

-his side control and pins were crushing. It was like i was wrestling an anaconda, everytime i squirmed he held it tighter. i fought for underhooks so i can bridge out and when i did i was able take his back. i was able to take his back a few times, and he turtled up. however, he did not focus on protecting his neck from the turtle. i went for a lapel choke from the back but he was able to successful defend.

-he was able to mount me and got me in a keylock. however, i felt pressure in my ELBOW as opposed to my shoulder. tap and ended the match. an aside, 100% of the time i get keylocked in jiujitsu pressure was from the shoulder, but it's interesting in judo i felt it in my elbow.

after the randori he asked if i had an prior martial arts experience, i told him i was a blue in jiujitsu. he gave me a respectful smile and nodded.

of course when we were doing tachiwaza, he just LOL'd and made me his bitch (but in a nice way).

So what i wanted to say is, 3rd dan's are no joke!!! also the judo club spends about 60/40 tachiwaza vs. newaza. seems to be very complete. however i did rolled one of the brown belts, and he didn't seem to be ver proficient on the ground. seemed to want to maintain the pin then to go for a submission.

Kinda scared to get injured in judo, but i do acknowledge the need for learning great takedowns. Which judo club do you train at? Is it moderately priced?

 

[futang17]

Kinda scared to get injured in judo, but i do acknowledge the need for learning great takedowns. Which judo club do you train at? Is it moderately priced?

judo is insanely cheap compared to bjj ($50 vs $100+), i train at tohkon judo. there's 3 guys from gracie barra that comes there too.

 

[futang17]

A Judoka with solid newaza is an all round beast. The ability to take down opponents and submit them is what all grapplers should strive to achieve and its what MMA is needing.

like flavio canto? would love to see how he would in MMA setting

 

[Auspex]

Kinda scared to get injured in judo, but i do acknowledge the need for learning great takedowns.

I've been involved with Judo for almost a decade and recv'd far more injuries from 2 years of BJJ. (I'm learning to chill, injuries reducing)

Learn how to fall, get comfortable falling, have fun falling, don't be afraid to fall, don't fight throws in randori. Do these things and you may be sore, but you'll almost never get hurt.

Recall that the techniques in Judo were built around the ability to play in a safe environment. Safety should be a huge priority in all aspect of training. If tori is being a retard and forcefully dumping you on your nog, tell the dude to chill out.

Just like BJJ, Judo techniques are about flow and control. Without that you're just another meathead.

(not saying that being a meat head doesn't have its place....)

 

[Auspex]

Kinda scared to get injured in judo, but i do acknowledge the need for learning great takedowns. Which judo club do you train at? Is it moderately priced?

This also raises a huge problem that I have teaching Judo at an MMA facility.

Could be a lot of elements; bad time slot, low visibility, misunderstanding of Judo, or I could be a shitty teacher.

But....It's REALLY difficult for me to teach throws without folks having a basic+ understanding of break falls.

There should ALWAYS be a great focus on breakfalls and their importance. But, you can't teach break falls for the first week and expect MMA kids to come back. That certainly is a draw to BJJ.

I've tried to incorporate the control issue a lot and allow my guys to learn their break falls as uke while tori learns throws. It seems to be working quite a bit better, but I do fear that my guys may not be learnign their break falls as proficiently as they should.

Again, I put a LOT of emphasis on control so the inherent risks are limited, but I still wonder sometimes if its enough.

 

[platfox]

I sparred with a judo brown belt (I'm a bjj blue) that weighed about 40lbs less than me. I swept him pretty easily and had little trouble passing his guard. He did throw me pretty good a few times. Twice right into side control. His top side control was very strong. I've only felt that much top pressure from a guy his size by bjj purples and up. I would trade my game for his in a second. Perhaps because I can see how I am progressing in bjj, but when I think about what it'll take to get good on my feet, its very discouraging. Makes me almost want to give up and just accept being a guard puller.

 

[KahleyTriangles]

Futang thanks for the info! I think I know of 1 guy that goes as well. I'll check it out.

Auspex, thanks for assuaging my fears of judo injuries. I'm 32 and don't recover quite as fast as I used to from injuries.

 

[fourfif**]

when I think about what it'll take to get good on my feet, its very discouraging. Makes me almost want to give up and just accept being a guard puller.

That's crazy talk.

Put yourself in the position of a complete newb with zero grappling. Now for THAT guy, learning to be a competent takedown artist is like climbing mount everest. For you it's going to be more like walking up a long flight of stairs.

And once you get to the top, there's no looking back. Don't give up.

 

[platfox]

That's crazy talk.

Put yourself in the position of a complete newb with zero grappling. Now for THAT guy, learning to be a competent takedown artist is like climbing mount everest. For you it's going to be more like walking up a long flight of stairs.

And once you get to the top, there's no looking back. Don't give up.

I'm hoping you're comparison is right but it feels like its going to be tough goings while I'm a beginner. The part that is discouraging is that when we are doing tachi waza/randori I'm not even close to getting a throw, foot sweep, ankle pick, I mean nothing at all. Not even against kids, lol.

When I first started bjj, after a few weeks I could at least reverse some positions, shrimp my way back into guard, and other little things that would give me some encouragement. Judo (at the moment) seems to be an all or nothing type of game for me. I can't take anyone down so I feel like I'm not even in the game.

I'm not going to give up though. I'm hoping this judo class a couple times a week will help me prepare for the day when I'm a purple and am expected to be more well rounded. I don't want to be a purple and be asked questions about take downs by white belts and not be able to somewhat answer them.

 

[CyberFreq]

I'm hoping you're comparison is right but it feels like its going to be tough goings while I'm a beginner. The part that is discouraging is that when we are doing tachi waza/randori I'm not even close to getting a throw, foot sweep, ankle pick, I mean nothing at all. Not even against kids, lol.

When I first started bjj, after a few weeks I could at least reverse some positions, shrimp my way back into guard, and other little things that would give me some encouragement. Judo (at the moment) seems to be an all or nothing type of game for me. I can't take anyone down so I feel like I'm not even in the game.

I'm not going to give up though. I'm hoping this judo class a couple times a week will help me prepare for the day when I'm a purple and am expected to be more well rounded. I don't want to be a purple and be asked questions about take downs by white belts and not be able to somewhat answer them.

Don't worry man, he's right. The takedown game is just a different kind of monster that needs a different mentality then the ground game. Honestly, for BJJ, I'd rather have a tight ground game and loose standup as opposed to having superb standup and sloppy groundwork.

Luckily, I'm fairly average at both (for a white belt at least) so yay.

 

[platfox]

Don't worry man, he's right. The takedown game is just a different kind of monster that needs a different mentality then the ground game. Honestly, for BJJ, I'd rather have a tight ground game and loose standup as opposed to having superb standup and sloppy groundwork.

Luckily, I'm fairly average at both (for a white belt at least) so yay.

I agree, unfortunately I have to improve quite a bit just to get to "loose", lol.

 

[Nickynoneck]

Same I find judoka's are iffy but really its just what there games are focused on , when I did judo (3 years) i always won on the ground then i started bjj to help my ground game and well i didnt look back lol .
My judo stand up is terrible now its really crazy on how much you loose in just a little over 2 years the major thing i have saved is my ability to block throws and reversals .

 

[HomerPlata]

That's crazy talk.

Put yourself in the position of a complete newb with zero grappling. Now for THAT guy, learning to be a competent takedown artist is like climbing mount everest. For you it's going to be more like walking up a long flight of stairs.

And once you get to the top, there's no looking back. Don't give up.

Sound advice right there :icon_chee

 

[YeahBee]

I once rolled with a guy that epitomized Bruce Lee's "be like water" creed

this guy is a 6th Dan in judo, senior worlds champ, all around badass (once won a Nordic championship with a broken arm, dude just held it straight up in the arm for several matches)

now i didn't have much judo back then and no BJJ experience but this dude was smother then anyone i have ever rolled with, he did nothing flashy or spectacular, everything was just so effortless, he didn't work any subs it was just guardretaining from everywhere, sweeps at will but everything very basic

 

[georgejjr]

It varies greatly of course. In general judoka aren't as good as BJJ'ers on the ground, BJJ'ers aren't as good as judoka on their feet. As Jimmy Pedro Jr says in a recent interview, if you spend most of your time on the ground you will be better on the ground and worse at throwing than someone who spends most of their time on their feet. There's no magic involved in BJJ or judo, you get better where you put your effort.

There are exceptions of course. Jacare throws very well. According to Gracie Magazine (and if they're prejudiced its not against BJJ'ers) Kenzo Nakamura (96 Olympic gold medalist) rolled full out with Roger Gracie for ten minutes at the Budokan without getting subbed (though Roger would have won on points).

Interestingly enough, Pedro commments that the change in judo rules (I think he means the 90's change of the quick mate/standup) is removing ne-waza from judo. Guys like Neil Adams, Nakamura, and Pedro himself (he was a world champion and Olympic medalist known for his ground game) are a dying breed in judo, the current rules means you're wasting your time training ne-waza if you want to win Olympic gold. Every hour you spend on the ground, your competition is training standup, which given the rules is where you're going to be competing.

 

[MUFC]

^^^ TBF, Jacare had a blackbelt in Judo before he started BJJ and is a tremendous athlete. Still, I don't think he would be able to throw even mid-level Judoka of similar size, and would get ragdolled by the top end Judokas.

 

[Wu36]

Shiro Oishi has the best kesa gatame I've ever seen, I'm probably 75 lbs heavier and 1/3rd his age but theres nfw I'm recovering guard vs him.

 

[RacerX]

...

Interestingly enough, Pedro commments that the change in judo rules (I think he means the 90's change of the quick mate/standup) is removing ne-waza from judo. Guys like Neil Adams, Nakamura, and Pedro himself (he was a world champion and Olympic medalist known for his ground game) are a dying breed in judo, the current rules means you're wasting your time training ne-waza if you want to win Olympic gold. Every hour you spend on the ground, your competition is training standup, which given the rules is where you're going to be competing.

Yeah, it's sad. Too bad Oda is not around to kick these IJF guys in the ass. As if the limits on newaza weren't enough, they are banning more throwing techniques--and not for safety reasons. It's a really painfull thing to see, because Judo should be as complete a grappling art as you could safely train.