Muscle overlap

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Mojorisin99, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Mojorisin99

    Mojorisin99 Green Belt

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    I lift about 5 times a week with each day focusing on one body part, ie chest, legs, arms, shoulders and back. This is the style most weight lifters have told me to use to maximize rest. But how do u combat muscle overlap. For example when you do back you are working your biceps as well. Most chest workouts hit your triceps, a lot of shoulder excercises work your chest and back. So aside from doing legs, most body parts are going to be worked multiple times. How do you ensure they are getting the proper rest?
     
  2. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    judge it by progress... and ditch that bodybuilder horse shit. there's little to no reason to workout five days a week like you're doing. Read the stickies, learn to train for strength.
     
  3. Sean S

    Sean S Brown Belt

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    OH MY GOD!!! COMPOUND EXERCISES?? AHHHHH

    Serious guy, you're trying to avoid being strong really. Isolation is for wussies. Do what Urban says.
     
  4. LeeJolly

    LeeJolly White Belt

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    I've only been on this forum a short time, but I'm not sure why there is so much hostility towards bodybuilding exercises. Bodybuilders don't just sit on machines doing isolation exercises all day. Go to any of their forums and you will here the same stuff: compound movements, deadlifts, bench, full squats, etc.

    While the relationship between strength and muscle size isn't a linear progression, there IS a connection there at some level. Also, not all MMA athletes do low rep powerlifter type workouts. Team quest I know for one does very high rep weight training with oly lifts, etc.

    Finally, weight classes do exist, and the best way to go up in weight classes is to put on quality muscle, if someone needs to do curls and tricep extensions to get there, whats the big deal? It also helps strengthen the tendons and forearms.

    The other post about shoulder strength the guy got flamed too. Building strong shoulders and rotator cuffs is extremely important.

    If I'm wrong on this please fill me in, but in my opinion there is room for all these exercises, plyometrics, bodyweight only, HIIT, high rep, low rep, some isolation, compound, they all benefit the fighter.
     
  5. Sean S

    Sean S Brown Belt

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    Because the worst thing to do with strength is to isolate, period. Ok there might be worse things like never eating, but isolation is up there. And body builders may touch on things like deadlifts (Highly doubt 95% of them do this exercise), they also waste a lot of time on bicep isolation bs. You can gain muscle just fine doing complex, heavy exercises and gain the abilty to move large amounts of weights using groups of muscles. It's that simple. No one is saying that you have to do powerlifter perfect routines. Olympic lifts are just fine too. The biggest problem with them though is the complexity of movement. However, it's still the same idea: Compound movements. That's why people dog body building here. Sure you can get strong that way, but there are way better way of getting strong.
     
  6. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    Oly high rep is fine, because that would be like high rep explosive training. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  7. LeeJolly

    LeeJolly White Belt

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    Ok, now I understand where you are coming from. You are judging it on a false premise. Nothing stimulates GH and testosterone secretion like big muscle group compound exercises like deads and squats, you simply can't get big without them. 99% of them do these. It's a matter of rep range and slight variances in form, etc. Many bodybuilders dabble in powerlifting and vice versa. Different sides to the same coin.
     
  8. TheNerdKing

    TheNerdKing <img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4586/

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    You can when you are taking 257824958208 ml of horse steroids every day like ALL professional bodybuilders do.

    Those guys dont stimulate shit, they inject all they need and more then go for 52x52 concentration curls.

    Why would you go through all the work of dling to stimulate GH when you are already injecting so much of it directly.

    ANSWER:

    They don't. Ronnie might do an 800lb deadlift once in a while to show off which is cool, but the rest of those assclowns are all over the nautilus machines going 1/2 ROM with too much weight for high reps while injecting litres of juice before, during and after workouts.

    Atleast thats how all the bodybuilders at my gym(2 wanna-be competative) do it.
     
  9. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    Except for me and one other guy (who lifts bb style), noone does any Deadlifts, a few guys either 3/4" squat free-weight or use the smith machine to 3'4" squat. I would say my gym has between 15 to 40 people in it at a time also, so it's not like there is few people there.
     
  10. Sean S

    Sean S Brown Belt

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    I have no idea what you are implying I said. I never said anything about powerlifting being better at stimulating growth of muscles. The only think I said about muscle growth is that it is possible to promote it with powerlifting exercising and routines.

    Maybe you are keying on my thing about body builders and deadlifts? I don't know. I'd keep this conversation going but I have no idea what you are getting at.
     
  11. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    that is simply not true, where do you get this statistic from when all you have to do is goto a gym.

    When we are talking about Bodybuilding we are referring to people who are exercises first for looks (ie size) and then secondarily for other things. Not necessarily about pro body-builders because there are so few of them anyways, but from reading about stuff like that, they might add a DL here or there, but it doesn't seem to be a staple of their routines.
     
  12. Pale1

    Pale1 Blue Belt

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    I lift chest one day tri's the next, but I know that I am working tri's on both days and I love dead lifts and squats. I say if you overlap you'll still be fine.
     
  13. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    oh, another answer is that there is so much body building stuff out there and this is our little place to try and get away from that since most of us don't believe in it. The uneducated public thinks these bodybuilders are the end all-be all in strength and fitness when it is simply not true. When a bodybuilder comes up to you and gives you advice on how to do something wrong it can get pretty annoying also.
     
  14. LeeJolly

    LeeJolly White Belt

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    I wasn't implying anything, I just quoted you saying 95% of bodybuilders don't do them, which is false. I stated the reason they DO do them is because of the hormonal benefits of working compound exercises (not to mention them being just superior exercises).

    This is an unwinnable arguement: I can say they do deadlifts and you all will say they don't and site an example of only you and one other guy in your gym do them...etc etc.

    I've read bodybuilding books buy Weider, Mauro Di Pasquale, Rob Faigan, etc. They all agree compound exercises are better than isolation exercises. Some things though, like your back, biceps and triceps and shoulders, could use some isolation.

    Basically what I'm saying is most responses seem very close minded about training. Saying "only this works and everything else sucks" is not going to benefit you in the long run. Watch someone in Pride sneek out of an armbar and say in an interview "I attribute that to the heavy curls I've been focusing on" and watch that be the hot new thing on these boards.
     
  15. LeeJolly

    LeeJolly White Belt

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    Well I can see that. Size alone doesn't make experts. And it isn't a bodybuilding forum, but where I'm coming from is bodybuilding made this stuff. In my view, bodybuilding competitions are pretty gay, but it's transformed sports. Weightlifting was never done besides the occasional strong man circus sideshow 100 years ago. We owe bodybuilding a lot, and it continues to be innovative. Not just in lifting but in nutrition. 6 meals a day was there idea. protien supps were their idea, etc.
     
  16. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    i think you had me mixed up with someone else making the 95% quote thing.

    Weider, Di Pasquale, and Rob Faigan books are fine for bb-ing and they do incorporate strength stuff, but my examples are coming from what I see in the general public who use body-building workouts, those are the people we deal with on a weekly basis.

    You should do a heavy curling experiment and see how that benefits you strength wise.

    You can use BBing to get stronger, it just doesn't work as well and this forum isn't about vanity. You cannot pose to see how strong you are getting. A wise man once said, big isn't strong, only strong is strong.
     
  17. Fedorable

    Fedorable 1/1024th Mod

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    People used heavy things to get stronger for battle before they used heavy things to get bigger, so this can go back and forth and bb-ing did contribute a lot, no doubt, but there is a time and place for that stuff and it is all over it seems, so we just like our nice little forum without it. It would be easy to transform this to a body building forum, but then the regulars here would be sad :( .
     
  18. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    no, it won't. This argument has been used again and again and again for isolation exercises (armbars specifically) and I can tell you that with 1 grappling session under my belt, you won't curl out of my armbar. there is too much weight, your bicep is too weak, and you are at too much of a mechanical disadvantage.

    I don't think we're all on the same page here. let's define bodybuilder: any schlub that goes to the gym and gives muscular appearance more priority than performance. Now, is it safe to say lee, that most people who go to commercial gyms fall in this category, and that a very small percentage of them (say 5%) deadlift? a slightly larger percentage squat with good form and depth, but again, I wouldn't guess more than 10-20%.

    Pro bodybuilders are another basket of fruits altogether. they have their shit together, they have the genetics, they have advanced training routines, and they are, for the most part, included in the 5% of BBers that train with good exercises. Every schmoe in the gym I see does endless benches and curls, and maybe once a week does a quarter squat. and I'm the only person I've EVER seen do a deadlift.

    ALL this, however, says NOTHING about the ability of bodybuilding to build strength and power. and since bodybuilding is NOT about strength and power and instead focuses on appearance, it's safe to say that the goals are different, the training is different, and they are not compatable.

    FYI, BBer muscle growth is largely (not entirely) sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is not ideal for strength either.
     
  19. LeeJolly

    LeeJolly White Belt

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    It absolutely is a staple of their routines. For example, I spent 1 second searching on bodybuilding.com forums. And came up with a new guy asking the best exercizes:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=546631

    both responses list deadlifts, squats, stiff legged deadlifts. There is not a doubt in my mind thats it's a staple in their workouts. It is in mine, it is in every piece of advice of theirs, it's in every book I've read. In Weiders book that lists the actual workouts of Arnie, Haney, Ferrigno they ALL without exception use them.
     
  20. DarkGenbu

    DarkGenbu White Belt

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    I've been to some BB'ing forums; yes they do deadlift but in the worst shit-fuck form you can imagine -
    this is shown through their posted videos and their step-by-step advice on how to do it.
     

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