International Modern warframe

[PBAC]

So in this is in conjunction with the US v China thread

How do you think the West fairs in terms of innovation and technical advancments in the miliary?

China has been show casing drone armies en-mass and recently displayed a Gen 6 fighter jet. They also tested a hyper sonic nuclear capable missile. Russia is already using hyper sonic missiles in war and has clearly begun using drone combat on a scale we haven't seen with the USA. ##

Russia has their hooks in everything when it comes to cyber security including outright hacking, shutting down and likely root kitting the Irish medical system. The Dutch rail system was also shut down by an unknown hacker. When something gets to that stage it is fair to assume the system itself is compromised. Western public services are laughably bad at detecting cyber threats until it is too late an even within cyber security circles IT have too much difficulty getting staff to behave responsibily, let alone informing them that the public themselves can also spread compromising software.

I have not seen much advertisement when it comes to western robot armies, and little to no claims that the west are interfearing with China/Russia/NK cyber security. Western orgs seem to be Dodos in this field. At least in recent times they are not show casing active drone warfare like we see in Ukraine. In fact it was the ME who introduced us to suicide drones, something that literally sounds like it was copied from Command and Conquer generals.

Do you feel the touted might of the West is currently being off set by the rapid technological advancements in rival nations? If world war 3 breaks out will it be a matter of muskets vs machine guns? There was also the recent revelation that China has been grossly under reporting their military budget. Never mind just the US but have France, Germany, Australia put any focus on robot warfare yet?

 

[Cole train]

West does fine imo

Only thing you could say russia is ahead tech wise is drones and thats against europe, usa i cant say

In europe militaries only started taking drones seriously since ukr war started in 2022 while russians were already leading artillery fire with drones in 2014 (i was being taught to lead fire with map, paper and pencil then lol)

China is a question mark

Just my 2 cents

 

[William Huggins]

I don't think that's 6th Gen....

The Shenyang WS-10 is their first native design, before this it was previous Gen Russian designs for fighter jet engines, they haven't ironed out the fabrication requirements for even higher performance engines...... China is still way behind on certain technologies, most of the Tech for their J20 fighter is stolen from F35 development data that they hacked. If you look at the J20 it's got big canards, if you read up about creating a stealth aircraft their considered more of a draw back.

The J20 might have a certain amount of stealth in certain aspect ratios and considering it's a very big bird I would guess it's from the frontal aspect. It's basically a long range air superiority fighter with class leading BVR abilities if the missile specs are believable I'm not sure about the radar system. It's probably just stealthy enough to acquire a target and get it's missiles off first against a Gen 4.5 fighter..... Those missile bays when opened are going to decrease it's stealth capacity.

Drone tech, isn't going to be that difficult to produce and achieve and the US have been working on it for sometime.

Considering the UK have produced a Quantum clock that's in testing you'll not need GPS this is especially important for underwater drones. I wouldn't want to be on a future surface naval vessel, with the threats from the sky and under the sea.

 

[Scerpi]

I wonder if some of these advanced missies could make aircraft carriers obsolete…

What if a preemptive massive missile attack took out most of the US’s carriers?

Carriers are the main asset the US has to project global power

 

[AWilder]

So in this is in conjunction with the US v China thread

How do you think the West fairs in terms of innovation and technical advancments in the miliary?

China has been show casing drone armies en-mass and recently displayed a Gen 6 fighter jet. They also tested a hyper sonic nuclear capable missile. Russia is already using hyper sonic missiles in war and has clearly begun using drone combat on a scale we haven't seen with the USA. ##

Russia has their hooks in everything when it comes to cyber security including outright hacking, shutting down and likely root kitting the Irish medical system. The Dutch rail system was also shut down by an unknown hacker. When something gets to that stage it is fair to assume the system itself is compromised. Western public services are laughably bad at detecting cyber threats until it is too late an even within cyber security circles IT have too much difficulty getting staff to behave responsibily, let alone informing them that the public themselves can also spread compromising software.

I have not seen much advertisement when it comes to western robot armies, and little to no claims that the west are interfearing with China/Russia/NK cyber security. Western orgs seem to be Dodos in this field. At least in recent times they are not show casing active drone warfare like we see in Ukraine. In fact it was the ME who introduced us to suicide drones, something that literally sounds like it was copied from Command and Conquer generals.

Do you feel the touted might of the West is currently being off set by the rapid technological advancements in rival nations? If world war 3 breaks out will it be a matter of muskets vs machine guns? There was also the recent revelation that China has been grossly under reporting their military budget. Never mind just the US but have France, Germany, Australia put any focus on robot warfare yet?

Drone warfare in Ukraine is by necessity, not by choice. Robot armies? have you not seen the extremely creepy boston dynamics dogs and other robots they have been developing for 20+ years? Hypersonic missiles is a buzzword, not a definition of a weapon. America has plenty of "hypersonic" missiles. The near-future "hypersonic" missiles under development are far superior to the "hypersonic" weapons china and russia (especially russian) have demonstrated.

virtually all of the China's innovation is based on stolen tech from the west. Even their "stealth" aircraft are built from stolen F35 blueprints, and if you look at images of both side by side you can see where they clearly just ripped it off. So no, China is not surpassing the west. They are getting better and better but they still are years behind. Not to say we should ignore their progress and goals.

 

[PBAC]

I wonder if some of these advanced missies could make aircraft carriers obsolete…

What if a preemptive massive missile attack took out most of the US’s carriers?

Carriers are the main asset the US has to project global power

Apparently russia and china place a lot of emphasis on sinking carriers termite torpedos and things like that.

 

[Scerpi]

Apparently russia and china place a lot of emphasis on sinking carriers termite torpedos and things like that.

Makes the most sense...

The US relies on Air Power to project power. And Aircraft carriers are the weak point. They always have been...

They're the definition of Max Offensive power with almost zero defensive capability.

I love listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore history and his retelling of the battle of Midway where Japan lost 4 carriers and the US lost one is riveting... almost all due to a minor Japanese decision fluke with having the wrong ordinance on bombers in the air was the turning point of the war in the Pacific. Japan was caught with its pants down.. and then attacked the same carrier twice by accident.

Approximately one hour later, Hiryū's second attack wave, consisting of ten B5Ns and six escorting Zeros, arrived over Yorktown; the repair efforts had been so effective that the Japanese pilots assumed that Yorktown must be a different, undamaged carrier. They attacked, crippling Yorktown with two torpedoes; she lost all power and developed a 23-degree list to port. Five B5Ns and two Zeros were shot down in this attack

All of Japan's ability to project air power was wiped out in one day... Due to losing most of their carriers

 

[Blayt7hh]

I wonder if some of these advanced missies could make aircraft carriers obsolete…

What if a preemptive massive missile attack took out most of the US’s carriers?

Carriers are the main asset the US has to project global power

It’s not nearly as easy as click bait YouTubers will have you believe. Those carriers are out in the middle of the ocean and it’s super hard to pinpoint a moving target out in the ocean like that. Not to mention it is surrounded by a fleet of ships armed with anti air capabilities to protect them. They are not invulnerable and yes there is more of a threat to them today than there was 20 years ago, but they are not obsolete by any stretch.

Think of this next time one of those articles pops up decrying aircraft carriers: the same Vhina that they are saying made them obsolete is working overtime to produce their own functional deep sea carriers

 

[aerius]

It’s not nearly as easy as click bait YouTubers will have you believe. Those carriers are out in the middle of the ocean and it’s super hard to pinpoint a moving target out in the ocean like that. Not to mention it is surrounded by a fleet of ships armed with anti air capabilities to protect them. They are not invulnerable and yes there is more of a threat to them today than there was 20 years ago, but they are not obsolete by any stretch.

Carriers can literally be seen from space and it's only a matter of time before Russia & China have full 24hr coverage of all the oceans in range of their missiles. They're not there yet, but they're both putting up new surveillance satellites as fast as they can. Once they get them up in orbit and tied into their networks they'll have full tracking & targeting of all US ships within weapons range of their shores.

Think of this next time one of those articles pops up decrying aircraft carriers: the same Vhina that they are saying made them obsolete is working overtime to produce their own functional deep sea carriers

China's carriers aren't really meant for fighting the US, they can't do it and they know it. They'll be using their CV's for some of the same things the US does - gunboat diplomacy and bombing the shit out of uncooperative 3rd world nations.

---

As for innovation and technical advancements, the West is stuck in a rut and getting overtaken in one area after another. The reasons are many, but most of them come down to complacency, failure to understand existing threats & anticipate future ones, and a procurement system that's massively tied up in red tape and more focused on profits than effective weapons.

Let's take a look at the best Western weapons systems in my lifetime, these would be the F-15, F-22, and Seawolf class nuclear attack subs. All of these platforms were designed & produced in direct response to anticipated threats from the Soviets. They exist because serious people in the US looked at then current Soviet systems along with what they had on the drawing boards and realized that they were gonna be in trouble if the Soviets ever figured out how to build their new toys. The F-15 was a response to what we thought the MiG-25 was, the F-22 was developed to take over from the F-15 and counter increasingly sophisticated Soviet radar & air defence systems. Same thing with the Seawolf class, the US saw that Soviet subs were getting a bit too good for comfort so they decided to build the best damn sub that technology allowed, we're not going to get anything better until the Block V Virginia class subs are launched and who knows when that's gonna happen.

The problem for us is China and Russia do take our weapons systems seriously and they've been hard at work figuring out how to either close the tech gap or find other ways of getting around our advantages. One example would be their emphasis on developing missile tech, both nations now have hypersonic missiles to counter US ships and in the case of Russia they've figured out how to load those missiles into planes, ships, subs, and land based systems. China's not there yet but they probably will be within 10 years, once that happens everything within 1000-1500 miles of either nation will be a no-go zone for surface ships which means the only we can hit them with will be sub launched Tomahawks and whatever we can stuff into a B-2 bomber. Meanwhile, the entire US west coast with all its naval bases are within range of various cruise missiles launched from inside Russia's borders.

Same thing with drones, Russia is way ahead of the West in both drone technology and how it's integrated into their forces. They have drones at the tactical, operational, and strategic level which can all be networked together into the rest of their systems. For example, a grunt with an FPV recon drone could spot a tank, pass the location to the local drone team which then lights it up with a laser from an Orlan 30 drone and 10 seconds later the artillery squad drops a laser guided shell on it from 20 miles away. Or let's say a Patriot battery lights up a Sukhoi Su-35 with radar, the planes can link with drone networks as well, a recon drone's gonna be flying over the suspected location before they can relocate and 10 minutes later it'll be obliterated by Iskander SRBMs. And now that EW systems are everywhere, they've recently come up with fiber optic guided drones which are immune to jamming, no one's figured out how to counter those yet other than running away and hoping the fiber optic spool runs out before the drone catches up.

If the West wants to keep its lead where it still has one, it needs to get serious. We have way too many jackoffs who are still masturbating over the past accomplishments of our Cold War era weapons programs, and who believe that all Russian and Chinese systems are junk. These shitheads are going to get us killed. We need to assume that their weapons systems can do what they claim until proven otherwise and design our own systems accordingly. This is how we got ahead and kept our lead during the Cold War, we took our enemies seriously and respected their abilities. We're not like that anymore, we've been having a circle-jerk for the past 30 years while our rivals have been working hard at catching up and beating us.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Carriers can literally be seen from space and it's only a matter of time before Russia & China have full 24hr coverage of all the oceans in range of their missiles. They're not there yet, but they're both putting up new surveillance satellites as fast as they can. Once they get them up in orbit and tied into their networks they'll have full tracking & targeting of all US ships within weapons range of their shores.



China's carriers aren't really meant for fighting the US, they can't do it and they know it. They'll be using their CV's for some of the same things the US does - gunboat diplomacy and bombing the shit out of uncooperative 3rd world nations.

---

As for innovation and technical advancements, the West is stuck in a rut and getting overtaken in one area after another. The reasons are many, but most of them come down to complacency, failure to understand existing threats & anticipate future ones, and a procurement system that's massively tied up in red tape and more focused on profits than effective weapons.

Let's take a look at the best Western weapons systems in my lifetime, these would be the F-15, F-22, and Seawolf class nuclear attack subs. All of these platforms were designed & produced in direct response to anticipated threats from the Soviets. They exist because serious people in the US looked at then current Soviet systems along with what they had on the drawing boards and realized that they were gonna be in trouble if the Soviets ever figured out how to build their new toys. The F-15 was a response to what we thought the MiG-25 was, the F-22 was developed to take over from the F-15 and counter increasingly sophisticated Soviet radar & air defence systems. Same thing with the Seawolf class, the US saw that Soviet subs were getting a bit too good for comfort so they decided to build the best damn sub that technology allowed, we're not going to get anything better until the Block V Virginia class subs are launched and who knows when that's gonna happen.

The problem for us is China and Russia do take our weapons systems seriously and they've been hard at work figuring out how to either close the tech gap or find other ways of getting around our advantages. One example would be their emphasis on developing missile tech, both nations now have hypersonic missiles to counter US ships and in the case of Russia they've figured out how to load those missiles into planes, ships, subs, and land based systems. China's not there yet but they probably will be within 10 years, once that happens everything within 1000-1500 miles of either nation will be a no-go zone for surface ships which means the only we can hit them with will be sub launched Tomahawks and whatever we can stuff into a B-2 bomber. Meanwhile, the entire US west coast with all its naval bases are within range of various cruise missiles launched from inside Russia's borders.

Same thing with drones, Russia is way ahead of the West in both drone technology and how it's integrated into their forces. They have drones at the tactical, operational, and strategic level which can all be networked together into the rest of their systems. For example, a grunt with an FPV recon drone could spot a tank, pass the location to the local drone team which then lights it up with a laser from an Orlan 30 drone and 10 seconds later the artillery squad drops a laser guided shell on it from 20 miles away. Or let's say a Patriot battery lights up a Sukhoi Su-35 with radar, the planes can link with drone networks as well, a recon drone's gonna be flying over the suspected location before they can relocate and 10 minutes later it'll be obliterated by Iskander SRBMs. And now that EW systems are everywhere, they've recently come up with fiber optic guided drones which are immune to jamming, no one's figured out how to counter those yet other than running away and hoping the fiber optic spool runs out before the drone catches up.

If the West wants to keep its lead where it still has one, it needs to get serious. We have way too many jackoffs who are still masturbating over the past accomplishments of our Cold War era weapons programs, and who believe that all Russian and Chinese systems are junk. These shitheads are going to get us killed. We need to assume that their weapons systems can do what they claim until proven otherwise and design our own systems accordingly. This is how we got ahead and kept our lead during the Cold War, we took our enemies seriously and respected their abilities. We're not like that anymore, we've been having a circle-jerk for the past 30 years while our rivals have been working hard at catching up and beating us.

It’s way harder than you think it is to find these battle fleets in the ocean. I am aware they have satellites. The first thing that is going down in a conflict between us is the satellites on both sides. Secondly, even if they do see them they are moving targets that will react to the threat. They are armed with tons of air defense. And worse yet, they can take a few missiles before they go down. I get that you want to route for China, but they still aren’t ready for us.

You missed the point I was making about aircraft carriers. You’re contending that China has rendered them obsolete, yet they themselves are sinking tons of their defense budget into making them. You can try to find a poor explanation for that if you want, but it’s pretty obvious they aren’t pumping billions into a platform that they themselves have allegedly rendered obsolete

 

[aerius]

It’s way harder than you think it is to find these battle fleets in the ocean. I am aware they have satellites. The first thing that is going down in a conflict between us is the satellites on both sides. Secondly, even if they do see them they are moving targets that will react to the threat. They are armed with tons of air defense. And worse yet, they can take a few missiles before they go down. I get that you want to route for China, but they still aren’t ready for us.

Losing satellites is a pain in the ass but it's hardly fatal, China, Russia, and the US all have airborne radar systems and over the horizon radar systems which can be used for tracking ships. The problem for the US is missile speed & reaction time, you'll have about 10 minutes from when the carriers are spotted to the missiles arriving, you're not going to get very far in that time, not nearly far enough to get out of range of the missile's internal seekers when they get there. As for shooting them down, good luck, a CVBG will be swarmed with dozens if not hundreds of missiles until its magazines run dry and it goes down. And cheering for China? Lol, I'm on record as stating that I'd be quite happy with mainland China glowing in the dark for the 100 years.

You missed the point I was making about aircraft carriers. You’re contending that China has rendered them obsolete, yet they themselves are sinking tons of their defense budget into making them. You can try to find a poor explanation for that if you want, but it’s pretty obvious they aren’t pumping billions into a platform that they themselves have allegedly rendered obsolete

Carriers have always been prestige projects to some extent, nations will often build them to join "the big boy's club" even when there's not really any logical military reason for them to do so, it's just something you do if you're a nuclear power or want to be seen as a serious player on the world stage.

Then we come back to intended use which I touched on in my previous post. China is currently on a colonizing spree in Africa to lock up all the resources they're going to need in the future, sooner or later they're going to run into some trouble from the locals. Carriers and amphibious landing ships are quite useful for various police actions in 3rd world nations, that's why China is building them. They're not for invading Taiwan and fighting the US navy like most people think.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Losing satellites is a pain in the ass but it's hardly fatal, China, Russia, and the US all have airborne radar systems and over the horizon radar systems which can be used for tracking ships. The problem for the US is missile speed & reaction time, you'll have about 10 minutes from when the carriers are spotted to the missiles arriving, you're not going to get very far in that time, not nearly far enough to get out of range of the missile's internal seekers when they get there. As for shooting them down, good luck, a CVBG will be swarmed with dozens if not hundreds of missiles until its magazines run dry and it goes down. And cheering for China? Lol, I'm on record as stating that I'd be quite happy with mainland China glowing in the dark for the 100 years.



Carriers have always been prestige projects to some extent, nations will often build them to join "the big boy's club" even when there's not really any logical military reason for them to do so, it's just something you do if you're a nuclear power or want to be seen as a serious player on the world stage.

Then we come back to intended use which I touched on in my previous post. China is currently on a colonizing spree in Africa to lock up all the resources they're going to need in the future, sooner or later they're going to run into some trouble from the locals. Carriers and amphibious landing ships are quite useful for various police actions in 3rd world nations, that's why China is building them. They're not for invading Taiwan and fighting the US navy like most people think.

Yeah again all of that is a lot more difficult than you’re making it out to be. You’re pointing out the fact that it can be done which is a given. What you don’t seem to grasp is that it’s a lot easier said than done.

Those radars that have the ability to reach far out and tell a carrier from just anything else in the ocean- guess what? They give their own signature and their location gets targeted. You know what’s really good at finding those and taking them out? The F35 that you said sucks.

Back to my other point, if China is ramping up to fight us and thinks aircraft carriers are sitting ducks, you think they’re going to build them? Obviously they aren’t because if that was the case, they’d be flat out stupid. They’re building big nuclear reactor carrier right before a potential conflict because they know they aren’t obsolete.

 

[Cid]

You're comparing the improvements of a couch potato to that of an elite athlete.

Those last gains are the hardest. Especially when sharing comes into play.