MMA Sweeps

[QuicksandBJJ]

My point is that instead of keeping the narrow viewpoint of either get up, don't get hit, or submission..how about control posture, create angles, control grips.

And if an mma coach is telling fighters to never use half guard, that tells me that he just doesn't know that much about half guard..like..how to troubleshoot it..how to win the space game, how to win the angles game. What rank in BJJ was this mma coach, UFC vet?

I'm no UFC fighter, but I play half guard all the time against wrestlers, and rarely get flattened out, even against other purple belts that are bigger than me, except guys whose half guard defense/passing game is just better than my half guard..but I'm also only a purple belt..a black belt who knows all the ins and outs of half guard and is somewhat of a half guard specialist knows how to not get flattened out, knows how to trouble shoot to create and close space when needed, and knows how to create angles..

The same rules apply to any guard..know how and when to create and close space, know how to win the posture/grips/angle battle..and that's where the sweeps come from, by winning those battles first..

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

By the way..when I say I am no UFC fighter, I mean I didn't fight in the UFC, I do have experience fighting MMA.

 

[rmongler]

My point is that instead of keeping the narrow viewpoint of either get up, don't get hit, or submission..how about control posture, create angles, control grips.

saying its narrow minded to emphasize those things is like saying its narrow minded to tell guys to use specific posture when doing a squat.

 

[Zankou]

My point is that instead of keeping the narrow viewpoint of either get up, don't get hit, or submission..how about control posture, create angles, control grips.

And if an mma coach is telling fighters to never use half guard, that tells me that he just doesn't know that much about half guard..like..how to troubleshoot it..how to win the space game, how to win the angles game. What rank in BJJ was this mma coach, UFC vet?

I'm no UFC fighter, but I play half guard all the time against wrestlers, and rarely get flattened out, even against other purple belts that are bigger than me, except guys whose half guard defense/passing game is just better than my half guard..but I'm also only a purple belt..a black belt who knows all the ins and outs of half guard and is somewhat of a half guard specialist knows how to not get flattened out, knows how to trouble shoot to create and close space when needed, and knows how to create angles..

The same rules apply to any guard..know how and when to create and close space, know how to win the posture/grips/angle battle..and that's where the sweeps come from, by winning those battles first..

The problem is that you need to think about the strategic situation, your strengths and weaknesses, rather than just thinking about what a correctly executed sweep would look like. It's easy to say 'win the hand fighting,' but when you are going up against an expert hand fighter, it makes little sense for that to be the expectation.

A wrestler in top position has certain overwhelming strengths, two of the biggest being exceptional hand fighting and base. Playing underhook half guard is literally going directly at the wrestler in their strongest possible game. If you asked me what game a wrestler would be best at countering, I'd literally be hard pressed to think of any better example than underhook half guard.

This doesn't mean underhook half guard won't ever work, but when it does it's almost invariably because you hit the move early and fast (like an escape), or you are able to go deep under the guy and capture his far leg for a deep half type sweep. This is really the number one sweep I use from underhook half, and it's fairly ideal for MMA, as used by perhaps the most successful MMA half guard sweep artist, Nogueira.

One of the reasons this sweep works so well is that it relies on an attack sequence that has no equivalent in wrestling, inverting under the guy for a double leg capture. It's not dependent on hand fighting, you are diving UNDER the guy for the sweep. And this, IMO, is characteristic of almost all sweeps that are most effective against wrestlers -- you get super deep underneath them, in a strange position that is rarely seen in wrestling, way past the hands and really working on the legs alone. Leglocks are another element of this sweeping game.

tl/dr version, when faced with a wrestler nogi, I always prefer to attack the legs for sweeps and submissions. They are simply too effective at handfighting and over/under games to take that head on. They are comparatively weak at defending the legs.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

"saying its narrow minded to emphasize those things is like saying its narrow minded to tell guys to use specific posture when doing a squat."

If you say so..I disagree..because squatting, there's really only one way to do it right without getting hurt. Are you saying the only effective way to play guard without getting hurt in mma is to just think about not getting hit or getting up? Think about it..if your opponent has to use his hands to base to avoid getting swept (because you are creating angles effectively) or if you are controlling hands and posture..how can he hit you?

 

[Uchi Mata]

My point is that instead of keeping the narrow viewpoint of either get up, don't get hit, or submission..how about control posture, create angles, control grips.

And if an mma coach is telling fighters to never use half guard, that tells me that he just doesn't know that much about half guard..like..how to troubleshoot it..how to win the space game, how to win the angles game. What rank in BJJ was this mma coach, UFC vet?

I'm no UFC fighter, but I play half guard all the time against wrestlers, and rarely get flattened out, even against other purple belts that are bigger than me, except guys whose half guard defense/passing game is just better than my half guard..but I'm also only a purple belt..a black belt who knows all the ins and outs of half guard and is somewhat of a half guard specialist knows how to not get flattened out, knows how to trouble shoot to create and close space when needed, and knows how to create angles..

The same rules apply to any guard..know how and when to create and close space, know how to win the posture/grips/angle battle..and that's where the sweeps come from, by winning those battles first..

Those are still the right things to do, but it's a hell of a lot harder to do so when being punched than not. All guards are worse in MMA than in BJJ competition, simply because the top guy always has the option of punching you. Some are worse than others. Closed guard, you don't lose that much. You can play a lot of the same strategies as you would in a grappling match as those strategies lend themselves well to MMA. You really can control posture in closed guard, you can isolate limbs and attack them in BJJ or MMA, etc. Half guard? It gets much worse in an MMA context because the basic strategy of getting an underhook, working down the leg, and getting to your knees to sweep (or rollover sweep in the top guy pushed back into you) largely falls apart because you can't control range effectively and as such are liable to take a ton of damage. The same reason the Mendes bros don't like half guard for BJJ is the same reason it's bad for MMA: insufficient distance control. Z guard is fine, deep half is okay, but old school half just doesn't give you much chance to either push a guy away or pull him really close in way he can't easily neutralize. You end up stuck in between, which is fine in grappling (just means you're going to play a lot of hand fighting games) but not so much in MMA (you're getting punched).

 

[rmongler]

im saying that; is it possible to do a normal hg sweep in mma? sure.

is it good to spend alot of your finite training time on it? no.

 

[Zankou]

"saying its narrow minded to emphasize those things is like saying its narrow minded to tell guys to use specific posture when doing a squat."

If you say so..I disagree..because squatting, there's really only one way to do it right without getting hurt. Are you saying the only effective way to play guard without getting hurt in mma is to just think about not getting hit or getting up? Think about it..if your opponent has to use his hands to base to avoid getting swept (because you are creating angles effectively) or if you are controlling hands and posture..how can he hit you?

I think he's saying that you have to be practical, and not assume that you are going to instantly and effectively hit the technique you want, any more than you would make that assumption in a BJJ competition.

If you watch guys working for half guard sweeps in BJJ competition, it's not like they just 'win the hand fight' and 'quickly' sweep their opponent. They will often have to work for several minutes to grind their way into the sweep. They know perfectly well how to execute the technique. It is not a question of telling them to 'get up on their side, control posture, win handfighting.' Everybody knows that. It's a question of actually succeeding in that against an opponent who knows the game as well and doesn't want to let you do it, plus has many options of his own to stop you from succeeding.

So the question is not simply how to do a move correctly, but rather what platform you can successfully fight through the expected opposition, reliably and safely, from for a sustained period of time. Half guard is generally not that platform, at least not in its present incarnation -- Nogueira has probably come closer than anybody to making half guard a viable MMA platform.

Another example: My favorite sweep of all is the hook sweep. However while butterfly is becoming very common in MMA, the hook sweep is rarely seen from it. Why? Because it requires too much handfighting, and in MMA that means you are handfighting while your opponent is punching you in the face. Instead butterfly tends to be used more to create space and scramble, in a very non-BJJ type way. Sadly this means beautiful hook sweeps are not nearly as useful for MMA as they are for pure grappling competition.

 

[kjg1672]

And if an mma coach is telling fighters to never use half guard, that tells me that he just doesn't know that much about half guard..like..how to troubleshoot it..how to win the space game, how to win the angles game. What rank in BJJ was this mma coach, UFC vet?


He's a third-degree black belt in BJJ.

I'm trying to give you a hard time or anything, but my coach is the most credible person I know as far as applying BJJ to MMA.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

Another example: My favorite sweep of all is the hook sweep. However while butterfly is becoming very common in MMA, the hook sweep is rarely seen from it. Why? Because it requires too much handfighting, and in MMA that means you are handfighting while your opponent is punching you in the face. Instead butterfly tends to be used more to create space and scramble, in a very non-BJJ type way. Sadly this means beautiful hook sweeps are not nearly as useful for MMA as they are for pure grappling competition.

I'm right there with you. Since I prefer to play off the overhook, I've been sitting up into a guillotine or an 'uchi mata' off the wizzer. The best butterfly advice I've ever gotten was from one of your posts, saying that butterfly is really just wrestling from your butt. That mentality is even more true when it comes to MMA.

Edit- Using the overhook, from half or butterfly, gives you a lot of omoplata-style entries when the guy wants to smash into you. In sport grappling, he might be more cagey about it, but in MMA he can unbalance himself trying to strike or just crush you.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

If you are losing the handfighting/underhook battle, it's not just because your opponent is a wrestler..it's because he is better at the handfighting/underhook battle than you are..I consider myself pretty much of a half guard specialist..I'd love to throw on some mma sparring gloves and take the pepsi challenge with the risk of getting hit..last time I fought mma I was only a BJJ white belt, I'd love to validate my theories with some mma guys that are white, blue, or purple belts, even guys that have a solid wrestling base..

But until then, and getting back on the topic of the forum..it's not so much "what sweeps work for mma", but it's more about becoming a specialist in whatever guard you like to play, and becoming a specialist to a greater degree than your opponent is at wrestling..again, that means:

1) knowing how to troubleshoot and recover your position
2) knowing how to win the space game (being able to create and close space, and knowing when to do which)
3) winning grips and creating angles.

A lot of sweeps will open up just by winning those battles..but you also need to know a sweep for each direction he is leaning..I'll use half guard because that's kinda my specialty..

1) traditional sweep if he's whizzering down hard,
2) "dogfight" sweep if his weight is away from you
3) "old school" sweep if you can get a hold of the far ankle.

If you focus on those things, your opponent will have a very difficult time hitting you, because as soon as he takes his hands up to try and hit you, he should be at risk for a sweep..and winning the position battle also means you are ready to pull the trigger on a sweep attempt at a moment's notice..that's gotta be a hair trigger.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you are losing the handfighting/underhook battle, it's not just because your opponent is a wrestler..it's because he is better at the handfighting/underhook battle than you are..I consider myself pretty much of a half guard specialist..I'd love to throw on some mma sparring gloves and take the pepsi challenge with the risk of getting hit..last time I fought mma I was only a BJJ white belt, I'd love to validate my theories with some mma guys that are white, blue, or purple belts, even guys that have a solid wrestling base..

But until then, and getting back on the topic of the forum..it's not so much "what sweeps work for mma", but it's more about becoming a specialist in whatever guard you like to play, and becoming a specialist to a greater degree than your opponent is at wrestling..again, that means:

1) knowing how to troubleshoot and recover your position
2) knowing how to win the space game (being able to create and close space, and knowing when to do which)
3) winning grips and creating angles.

A lot of sweeps will open up just by winning those battles..but you also need to know a sweep for each direction he is leaning..I'll use half guard because that's kinda my specialty..

1) traditional sweep if he's whizzering down hard,
2) "dogfight" sweep if his weight is away from you
3) "old school" sweep if you can get a hold of the far ankle.

If you focus on those things, your opponent will have a very difficult time hitting you, because as soon as he takes his hands up to try and hit you, he should be at risk for a sweep..and winning the position battle also means you are ready to pull the trigger on a sweep attempt at a moment's notice..that's gotta be a hair trigger.

Again, I think you're missing the point. It's not that half guard can't work, it's that it's very low % and dangerous because any time you're in what would be a handfighting situation in grappling, you're in a punching situation in MMA. Let's look at half guard based on the 3 criteria for success you mentioned above:

1) knowing how to troubleshoot and recover your position

What do you mean 'recover your position' in the context of half guard? It's a fairly static setup unless you're deep or have the knee shield.

2) knowing how to win the space game (being able to create and close space, and knowing when to do which)

Half is one of the worst guards for winning the distance game. You have essentially no ability to use your legs or bottom arm (in terms of over/under hooking) to control distance and are limited to handfighting and seeking the top arm underhook. The top fighter pretty much dictates space in half; in grappling that's okay because he has to get close to pass (or back out enough for you to recover full open guard) and you can work at that distance, but in MMA he can just punch you and you lose a lot of options.

3) winning grips and creating angles.

If one of your criteria for playing guard in MMA is 'winning grips' you're already in trouble. Reason being, that implies hand fighting and that implies you don't have control of the top guys limbs and are open to punches. There's a reason you see almost no protracted handfighting in MMA: either the bottom guy is able to secure a strong clinching control like an over or underhook, or the top guy is punching doing damage. The way to limit damage in MMA is to either create enough distance with your legs that you're out of punching range, or clinch in such a way as to eliminate the top fighter's ability to punch. Half guard really offers you neither.

You're talking a lot about losing the handfighting battle, and I'm saying there isn't really a handfighting battle because all the top fighter has to do is disengage long enough to punch and you're taking damage. He has no incentive to engage in grappling style handfighting, quite the opposite in fact.

So yeah, you could become a specialist in the half guard for MMA. But that would be like becoming a specialist in fake punts in football or stealing home in baseball. It works sometimes, but it's so low % that you'd be much better off getting good at higher % moves and getting the hell out of half guard when you find yourself there.

 

[rmongler]

something else to consider.


as soon as denny gives reis some space, he immediately comes up for the gimmie double.


as soon as marcelo gets a hold of a leg in butterfly, he comes up for the single or double, pretty much every time.

you want maximum effect for minimum effort? thats it right there.
A moments worth of explosion saves a matches worth of wrangling.

 

[georgegreece]

Half guard has its dangers in MMA. Facing a guy who is good at flattening you out and elbowing could be good night.

I see this when people try to get deep half they get smashed passed and their hips are already down enough for the other guy to punch any time the opponent hips are a little above yours he is dominant position you can't push with your legs and can't get high guard either

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

1) Recovering position:
Sometimes it means putting in the knee shield to create space to recover an underhook, when you get flattened out, framing your opponent to get an angle back, feeling those changes in pressure (like when your opponent is preparing to punch you)
2) Winning the distance game:
more often than not, winning the distance game means staying tight and closing space than it does creating space..the only times I create space is to get myself in a better position to quickly close it back up and create an angle better..
3) Winning the grips
clinching, underhooks and overhooks is part of winning the grip battle.

Ya know..instead of just dismissing everything I say and criticizing..maybe try and learn a thing or 2 from it..it's not that it DOESN'T work..or that it's low percentage..maybe it's more that there are no real half guard specialists in MMA..

Again, I won't hesitate to take the pepsi challenge and put my theories to the test..if someone makes me look dumb, they make me look dumb..but even in jiu-jitsu, guys have a pretty difficult time keeping me flat, and controlling me in half guard..and I'm talking wrestlers, bigger guys..and these are guys that are trying to smash..not posturing up (or relieving pressure) to try and punch..

 

[Zankou]

Btw, nice detail on how to G&P against underhook half guard.

[YT]VPCmDTfcGqc[/YT]

I really think the elbow across the throat may be the most underused BJJ technique ever. I like to joke that half of all BJJ problems can be solved by just putting your elbow across the guy's throat. It just ruins everything. I love to grab a cross collar thumb-in grip and just kind of shake that elbow on the throat. Absolutely terrible, wrecks almost anything the guy is trying to do. In MMA, of course, you can actually throw the elbow hard, not just give a little bouncin' love.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

I know it's easier said than done..but every time the top guy goes for a punch, bottom guy should be knee bumping him forward, using the bottom hand to push the knee out and shrimping out and creating angles..I have guys doing the elbow in the throat, or pressuring my face all the time in BJJ, and that's how I create space on them..and they aren't taking pressure off me to try and punch..

 

[Uchi Mata]

1) Recovering position:
Sometimes it means putting in the knee shield to create space to recover an underhook, when you get flattened out, framing your opponent to get an angle back, feeling those changes in pressure (like when your opponent is preparing to punch you)
2) Winning the distance game:
more often than not, winning the distance game means staying tight and closing space than it does creating space..the only times I create space is to get myself in a better position to quickly close it back up and create an angle better..
3) Winning the grips
clinching, underhooks and overhooks is part of winning the grip battle.

Ya know..instead of just dismissing everything I say and criticizing..maybe try and learn a thing or 2 from it..it's not that it DOESN'T work..or that it's low percentage..maybe it's more that there are no real half guard specialists in MMA..

Again, I won't hesitate to take the pepsi challenge and put my theories to the test..if someone makes me look dumb, they make me look dumb..but even in jiu-jitsu, guys have a pretty difficult time keeping me flat, and controlling me in half guard..and I'm talking wrestlers, bigger guys..and these are guys that are trying to smash..not posturing up (or relieving pressure) to try and punch..

No True Scotsman, huh?

Look, I and Ijustwannasurf and Tenktriangles and some other guys, all very experienced grapplers, get together and train MMA regularly (Ijustwannasurf has his first fight coming up soon in fact). At least two of us have very well developed half guard games, Ijustwannasurf has one of the best half guard games I've ever had to deal with in or out of competition. It's still a lot less effective in MMA for all the reasons I've mentioned. Everything you're saying is spot on for grappling but becomes much less meaningful when punches are involved. I think you just need to go spar with some decent MMA guys and try it out. There's a reason you don't see many half guard sweeps in high level MMA and why Randy Couture called top half 'the beatdown position'. It isn't that those guys suck at grappling, it's that it's an inherently inferior position for MMA.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I know it's easier said than done..but every time the top guy goes for a punch, bottom guy should be knee bumping him forward, using the bottom hand to push the knee out and shrimping out and creating angles..I have guys doing the elbow in the throat, or pressuring my face all the time in BJJ, and that's how I create space on them..and they aren't taking pressure off me to try and punch..

It's actually easier to knee bump vs. throat or face pressure because the top guy's weight is already forward. It's hard when he's sitting back looking for openings to strike.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

I'm not saying you're not very experienced..but maybe your half guard isn't as profiscient..or specialized is a better word for it..sure, there are always going to be people who can shut it down, but to make a blanket statement that the half guard in itself is ineffective..maybe you have something to learn.
Remember, before Royce Gracie came along..it was common knowledge that if you were on your back, you were in a world of hurt..
UchiMata, can I ask what your grappling experience level is? Cuz I've been around the game quite a bit too, and spent a lot of time really refining and specializing my half guard game..