MMA Sweeps

[ijustwannasurf]

QuicksandBJJ-
My entire guard game was underhook half-guard until a couple years into purple belt.
Why? Because being heavy/ultra-heavy means not wanting a guy your size putting pressure on you. To me, half-guard is halfway out. The underhook with the Lucas Leite leg swipe/torque was literally the first move I ever made my own. Now, I have more options- deep half, low knee-shield clamp a la Caio/G-Roll, giggler sweep, overhook and half-butterfly, etc.
I will give you my reason for playing differently in MMA (which has been stated before)- when someone is invested in passing your guard for points or a better position, they open themselves up to different counters from me. In MMA, the guy on top can win from the position. He doesn't have to move to inflict damage or score points. Why would he? I'm in the perfect range. I can adjust, frame, move my hips all I want- if he's invested on maintaining that position, it is very hard to escape. The paradigm of the game is different. I have guys frame my face and neck in sport BJJ too, but they still have the incentive to change positions, so that doesn't worry me. Do I still try for underhooks, do I still try to impose my game? Of course. I just have to be smarter about it.
MMA has changed the way I play half-guard in general. Overhooks keep his posture broken and help me frame myself away and onto my side, leading to omoplatas and guillotines as he adjusts. The low clamp helps me keep distance and break them down if they try to stand. If I can get the underhook with good head position, I shoot right into deep half or the dogbar position. It's made my game more dynamic, and I have a much more conscious understanding of the angles and frames and distance management that you are talking about.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

Kinda goes without saying, but half guard is very much a "take what he gives you" guard..if his weight is over you, knee bump..if his weight is back and he's trying to hit you, that means he's giving up space in other ways..giving you chances to dive underneath him and scoop the leg and get his weight forward..

 

[rmongler]

Cuz I've been around the game quite a bit too, and spent a lot of time really refining and specializing my half guard game..

'when all you have is a hammer, the whole world starts looking like a nail'.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'm not saying you're not very experienced..but maybe your half guard isn't as profiscient..or specialized is a better word for it..sure, there are always going to be people who can shut it down, but to make a blanket statement that the half guard in itself is ineffective..maybe you have something to learn.
Remember, before Royce Gracie came along..it was common knowledge that if you were on your back, you were in a world of hurt..
UchiMata, can I ask what your grappling experience level is? Cuz I've been around the game quite a bit too, and spent a lot of time really refining and specializing my half guard game..

Sure. I started Judo in 2000, got my black belt in that in 2005. I started BJJ in 2002, had to take a break for a few years around '06, and got back in mid 2010. I've been a purple belt since 2012. I've always competed in both Judo and BJJ with decent success, better in BJJ than Judo. I actually used to play A LOT of half guard, especially deep half. I've easily scored more points in competition off of deep half sweeps than anything else. I also wrestled in school, though not all the way through high school. I trained some MMA as well in the early part of the decade and have recently gotten back into it (in addition to having done some full contact karate).

I'm sure you have a really good half guard game for BJJ, but unless you've spent a lot of time working on it and testing it for MMA I'm pretty skeptical of what you're saying, based on my own experience as well as having watched a ton of MMA over the years. It's a position that is very, very different between MMA and sport BJJ, much more so than something like closed guard or side control. Again, I don't think you can't use half guard successfully in MMA (Nogueira did, Shogun did), it's just a lot more dangerous and lower % in MMA than in sport BJJ regardless of the skill level of the practitioner. You could put Bernado Faria or Celsinho or Oly Geddes or Gordo himself in an MMA situation and he'd be at a much bigger risk of taking a beating than he would be of getting passed in sport BJJ. I think it's just the nature of the position. It's not as viable when strikes are involved because you can't control distance effectively.

Also, you threw out the knee shield in one of your posts...I think the knee shield is a totally viable way of playing half in MMA, I use it a lot. It's superior because you can control distance a lot better and keep from getting either flattened or punched.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

'when all you have is a hammer, the whole world starts looking like a nail'.

Being the nail as much as I have is what made me refine my game..spending a lot of time getting smashed makes you figure out how to maximize every inch of space your opponent gives you..I still get shut down a lot by guys that are just that good at shutting down half guard..

and to ijustwannasurf,
I can't say my half guard game is as diverse as yours, I do have a solid underhook half guard game and deep half guard game, and I play some nice foot drag stuff..
I'd say that my troubleshooting and retention/recovery is probably the more diverse part of my game.

 

[masada555]

Another example: My favorite sweep of all is the hook sweep. However while butterfly is becoming very common in MMA, the hook sweep is rarely seen from it. Why? Because it requires too much handfighting, and in MMA that means you are handfighting while your opponent is punching you in the face. Instead butterfly tends to be used more to create space and scramble, in a very non-BJJ type way. Sadly this means beautiful hook sweeps are not nearly as useful for MMA as they are for pure grappling competition.

Can you describe the contemporary MMA butterfly guard techniques and strategy in your inimitable fashion?

I play a lot of butterfly guard but I don't watch any MMA, so I'm very curious about how it's being used effectively in the MMA context.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

I would love to test my half guard game in an mma situation..last time I did any of that was back when I was a blue belt, but the guy I was helping train didn't have the best ground game..

That said, I still maintain that if you can learn to play the space game (and maybe I should start doing some instructionals on this), it can be effective..especially considering every time your opponent wants to punch you, he has to give up space to do so..and if you can learn to create space and win the space battle against someone who is single-mindedly trying to take that space away and smash and pass (this includes keeping from getting flattened and winning the grip battles etc..)..it's not too far fetched to think you can learn to win the space battle with someone who will give up space to try and punch you..

I guess the key is to react to and take advantage of any change in pressure you feel, and getting on the front end of the reaction cycle..what I mean by that is making your opponent reactive to you, constantly adjusting his base, etc..to avoid being swept..to take his focus off of how he is going to hit you.

 

[Zankou]

A couple guys I think use the guard very effectively, Rory Macdonald and Robby Lawler.

This breakdown ironically shows Lawler using the bfly guard with great success against Rory. You see a lot of guys using this type of intermediary butterfly/wrestling guard in MMA, not for classic hook sweeps, but to create scrambles and also transition to leglocks/takedowns.

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-slack-the-evolution-of-robbie-lawler

The bfly guard is used to neutralize ground and pound by disrupting base and angles, allowing for a comparatively easy escape back to the feet. Cain Velasquez used this against Brock Lesnar, you may remember, and same basic idea. Contrast that with guards like closed guard and half guard where you are sort of locking yourself under the opponent and trying to work from there.

Generally the thing that is effective about it is when the guy comes in to GNP, you can easily make space and take an angle using the hooks to elevate and disrupt. This is actually quite different than how you use butterfly in regular grappling, where (as I've said many times) the hooks usually do remarkably little. In MMA the handfighting is different and the goal is different. From that article:

"Koscheck got a takedown almost immediately and Lawler moved to butterfly guard. From here Lawler underhooked a leg, took Koscheck overhead, and scrambled back up. Again, if he had just been looking to sweep, he would have still been on his back, but because he created space and used it to get up, the butterfly worked perfectly."

Exactly, the use is different in MMA -- if you just sat there trying to work bfly sweeps, you are missing the fact that it is much easier to use bfly to ESCAPE back to your feet and keep fighting. This is one of the best uses of modern BJJ for MMA, the transition from the bottom to go back to your feet, and I expect continuing technical development in this area (rather than the more old-fashioned 'defeat them from your back').

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

I think Zankou said it best..people are training to use things like butterfly guard and different guards to create scrambles and get back to their feet ultimately, or turn it into a single leg or double leg takedown..that's just the focus of their training. They probably drill that a lot..

I just don't see a lot of guys doing stuff like trying to off balance their opponent from the guard (like in bfly guard, getting both underhooks, pulling the hips underneath and elevating their opponent)..don't the gloves make it a little easier to control a hand, because your opponent has a bigger ball that he has to slip out of control?

Idk..it might be just me, but as a pure jiu-jitsu player with past mma experience..I just see a lot of the fundamentals like that being overlooked..maybe it's because guys have to train so many different areas..who knows..

 

[georgegreece]

it's because of the fear of the punch bj penn used the guard really well

 

[Sidecontrol87]

I avoid anything half guard, especially deep half. Works for Shogun most of the time, I guess. Mine isn't good enough to not get pounded out.

I use butterfly sweep and scissor sweep... those work the best for me.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think Zankou said it best..people are training to use things like butterfly guard and different guards to create scrambles and get back to their feet ultimately, or turn it into a single leg or double leg takedown..that's just the focus of their training. They probably drill that a lot..

I just don't see a lot of guys doing stuff like trying to off balance their opponent from the guard (like in bfly guard, getting both underhooks, pulling the hips underneath and elevating their opponent)..don't the gloves make it a little easier to control a hand, because your opponent has a bigger ball that he has to slip out of control?

Idk..it might be just me, but as a pure jiu-jitsu player with past mma experience..I just see a lot of the fundamentals like that being overlooked..maybe it's because guys have to train so many different areas..who knows..

In addition to the punching element, the round structure of modern MMA necessitates doing stuff quickly to try and win rounds. If you get taken down and spend the next 5 minutes setting up and working a sweep, that's a big risk because you're probably losing the round in addition to taking some damage along the way. The judges will always reward the top guy who did damage even if he gets swept near the end of the round.

Most top level guys have really excellent BJJ, but MMA doesn't really reward long setups resulting in a sweep the way sport BJJ does. And since both guys usually have good BJJ, the top fighter also knows how to avoid sweep while doing enough damage to win rounds. It's just not a winning proposition to work sweeps from butterfly or half unless you either A. have to because you're in an inferior position from which you can't stand up or B. you're so much better at grappling than the other guy that you can execute the sweep quickly and safely with time to do damage yourself once you're on top.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

Well..I'm not sure what sweeps you are thinking of that require "long setups", or what your definition of a long setup is..but I don't think any of the sweeps I'm talking about require a long setup in my mind.

UchiMata, are you in the midwest? Maybe we should have a brainstorming session.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Well..I'm not sure what sweeps you are thinking of that require "long setups", or what your definition of a long setup is..but I don't think any of the sweeps I'm talking about require a long setup in my mind.

UchiMata, are you in the midwest? Maybe we should have a brainstorming session.

I'm in Denver, though I used to live in Indiana.

In terms of long setups, I mean anything you can't get right away. Think about a typical half guard sweep: you hand fight to get the underhook, the top guy will base out or cross face to try and create distance, you work your way under him, try to get his far leg, shrimp down his leg, and get to you knees to sweep. That's a fairly long process in the context of a 5 minute round. Even in butterfly, if you can manage to clinch up enough to not get hurt you still may not get the sweep the first time you try it, and then he's up in the air riding your legs and you're trying to find a weak point of balance to tip him over (or transition to X), etc. And if it fails you have nothing, whereas if you can manage to stand up you're in a neutral position again and can try to do damage on the feet to win the round.

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

That might be where we are getting crossed..I don't consider the underhook or hand control and stuff part of the setup..that's just part of establishing and maintaining the guard..I don't start fighting for the underhook when I'm going to look for the sweep..I start fighting for the underhook as soon as I find myself without an underhook..and I'm not trying to offbalance you when I'm going to start a sweep..I'm trying to offbalance you as soon as I feel that you are stable..and that's what I don't see from guys in MMA when they get on the bottom..is that constant underhook battle and the constant little adjustments to keep your opponent adjusting..my mentality is that I'm gonna keep fighting for the underhook, keep rocking your base..because as soon as you stop fighting for the underhook..or stop fighting to maintain your base because you want to hit me..that's when you give up space, and that's when ppl get their back taken or get swept..obviously it's not 100% effective..but..what is?

 

[QuicksandBJJ]

And Denver you say? Keep me privvy to any good tournaments out there..my goals is 50 BJJ matches this year..I may come out there, and maybe we can cross paths and train together while I'm out there..and share some ideas.