Mistrust of Science - Evolution vs Creationism in the classroom


Cool reply dude. God forbid something horrible would happen to someone you love. You'd be surprised that prayer will seem like a viable option. Won't do you any good praying to scientists. Stay open, stay humble. Accept we humans don't know everything. Have a nice day, it's all good.

Your boy Isaac Newton was a believer. But let's trust atheist sherdoggers on the matter 99% expert level on any subjects.
 
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God forbid something horrible would happen to someone you love. You'd be surprised that prayer will seem like a viable option. Won't do you any good praying to scientists.

Prayer *never* helps the injured. On the other hand, doctors, aka "science", often do. Put your effort where it can yield results.
 
Cool reply dude. God forbid something horrible would happen to someone you love. You'd be surprised that prayer will seem like a viable option. Won't do you any good praying to scientists. Stay open, stay humble. Accept we humans don't know everything. Have a nice day, it's all good.

Your boy Isaac Newton was a believer. But let's trust atheist sherdoggers on the matter 99% expert level on any subjects.
It's a good thing guys like Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, etc. didn't blindly follow the religious beliefs of the time but went ahead an ran their own experiments to discover more accurate truth than anything that was being interpreted from the Bible.
 
Prayer *never* helps the injured. On the other hand, doctors, aka "science", often do. Put your effort where it can yield results.
Prayer is to help the injured person's loved ones cope with the situation.
 
It's a good thing guys like Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, etc. didn't blindly follow the religious beliefs of the time but went ahead an ran their own experiments to discover more accurate truth than anything that was being interpreted from the Bible.

Many of these you listed were religious. But science and religion does not mutually exclude each other. Google scientists that are/were (dead) believers.

I don't mind atheists. Time will show. Until then, keep your mind open. Don't be arrogant and deny things you have no knowledge of. Peace. Last post on this site for me.
 
You don't believe in the bible?

RE: The Christian Bibles, what do you mean "believe"? That the stories are all true? No, that's laughable. That the books document actual miracles? No, that's also laughable.
There are some humane pieces of wisdom mixed in with extreme brutality, but the self-help books on Amazon would be even better in this regard.
 
I think its easy to visualize how that could be true. As an atheist, I will assume that you think consciousness can reduced down to a purely physical interactions. Lets start there. That means that in theory, without enough cpu power, you could program conscious beings into a computer simulation. But because it is a computer simulation written by you, you can also define parameters so that they differ from our real world. For example, you could program in an a constraint that objects only move to the left or stay stationary; they never move to the right. No matter what happens in your simulation, the universe will always tend to the left, and in fact has been written so that it is "smeared" to the left, i.e. it spreads out over time as not all things move to the left equally quickly. The conscious beings in your universe will eventually become curious and start trying to model their reality and figure out its rules. They will develop physics that describe their universe that only moves to the left and spreads out over time. But they will have a big question to answer. They will deduce that at some finite point in the past, all matter was to the right of where it is now, and it was all compressed. There is no physics they can uncover, because it isn't coded into their simulation, that lets matter move right or compress...so how did it all get there? At that point, the religious among them will begin to wonder if their universe was actually set up by a creator who doesn't obey their rules, and who can act outside their rules. They will tell stories of the great, all-powerful creator who could set all objects to the right with just the flick of his wrist. Can they prove that? Probably not. But its not a stupid idea.

You can call it "god of the gaps", and maybe it is, but that doesn't make it wrong. We are in analgous situation right now in physics. Our current physics paradigm tell us the universe evolves in one direction. It start with a big bang and expands infinitely until nothing is in causal contact with anything else. It had a beginning a finite time ago. There is no physics consistent with our current theories that describes how that beginning can happen. In fact, much about the beginning requires physics that we don't observe today. For example, if you just naively try to use modern General Relativity to try to simulate how an early, dense universe expands to our current universe, you actually fail miserably. Instead, our current observed universe is one that didn't evolve according to GR, but rather is described by "inflation". That's a big problem, because it means that it looks like the physical laws in the early universe are completely different than our physical laws today, and despite the best efforts of theorists, there isn't much progress made on how the two are related. Now, I don't know how you jump from this to an intelligent creator, but it does start to look to me eerily isomorphic to claims made by deists... that there is a set of laws governing our universe today, but there may be *something* else out there, that follows a completely separate set of laws, and that only interacted with us in the opening moments of the universe.



See, I don't think those two things earn us bragging rights. We put some conductors in a box, lit an explosion under it, and crashed it into the other floating rock that is closest to us? Monkey's reach South America by getting caught on logs during a storm. In a few billion years our sun is going to swallow that rock and it won't be there. In 10^21 years, there will be no planets at all. Only super massive black holes. And for 10^64 years, there will be only those black holes. The universe will exist in a state dominated by black holes for an unfathomably longer time than planets will have existed in it. Yet the physics of black holes are incredibly poorly understand. So I don't think its worth bragging that we shot some shit from one planet to another. Its like a UFC fan who wrestles his brother in his basement trying to wear TAPOUT and act hard.

You're jumping towards simulation theory, but the problem with that is that code can be hacked and manipulated to expose the structure beneath.

Even beyond the philosophical arguments, every single religion and theory about a god is man made. There's no evidence to hold up for scrutiny. At that point, people can make up anything. And the evidence put forth for religious claims are so laughably terrible you would have to be brainwashed from birth to believe it.
 
You're jumping towards simulation theory, but the problem with that is that code can be hacked and manipulated to expose the structure beneath.
Exposing the structure is what physics is. But they can't expose what is outside their code. The beings in your simulation can't manipulate you, especially if you aren't interacting with the simulation. They have no method of uncovering the physics that guide you, they can only figure out their own physics. So as for how their simulation was set up initially...why the code was written the way it was, why the initial parameters were picked, if any patches were applied mid-execution...they can't determine that. Its meta-physics to them.
 
You're jumping towards simulation theory, but the problem with that is that code can be hacked and manipulated to expose the structure beneath.
I hit "like" instead of "reply" by accident.

Anyway what you wrote is not true.
 
The claim from Carl Jung that consciousness seems to exist outside of time and space seems to be the truth, or at least I can't find any faults in it. That's probably why we still have such a hard time trying to grasp it from a materialistic viewpoint. The idea that consciousness is just a byproduct of the brain's processes seem like nonsense to me. How does it create this self-awareness, which is more often self-defeating than not, and why is it necessary? What benefit could we possibly have to so acutely aware of our finitude, the evils of existence, and the possible fruitlessness of it all? The ideas presented in the spiritual books are that an aware observer is a necessary precondition to the cosmos, and that without an observer to describe its qualities you cannot say it exists. As in both the observer and the observation are required for either to be real. This is reflected in the Bible, miraculously enough, in John 1:1
In the beginning of the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This refers to God as the conscious word that creates from nothing, and that creation cannot exist without this consciousness. This is an ancient idea that predates the Bible. All the mythological stories in the Bible are far older than the books themselves, and they were created before the written word and survived the test of time. The Bible, when interpreted correctly with our scientific knowledge in mind, is a treasure of metaphysical truths that predate the oldest recorded civilizations. This is why the marriage of science with spiritual books are necessary so that we can extract the metaphysical truths from these stories, and not take them as literal accounts of history which defeats the purpose of these books that are designed to enlighten you.

"Modern man can't see God because he doesn't look low enough" -Carl Jung

Do you have any material/source suggestions for someone looking into the stories in the Bible being far older?
 
Many of these you listed were religious. But science and religion does not mutually exclude each other. Google scientists that are/were (dead) believers.

I don't mind atheists. Time will show. Until then, keep your mind open. Don't be arrogant and deny things you have no knowledge of. Peace. Last post on this site for me.
I chose those names because they were religious. They lived in a time when people used religion to explain the natural world and the church would burn you at the stake if your scientific convictions were at odds with their teachings. They went ahead and used the scientific method to lay down pillars of our understanding of physics and the universe that still bear a load to this day.

I personally am agnostic and don't deny there is a creator beind all this. I just don't believe in organized religion or that the Bible itself is holy and directly inspired by The Creator. Although I do believe it has many good teachings and if we all followed them the world would be a lot better off. Often times though it's those that preach the loudest that have the biggest burdens of sin among us.
 
Prayer is to help the injured person's loved ones cope with the situation.

well, have you ever read articles or seen interviews with doctors have pasient declared dead. And then come back with remarkable stories about the life beyond this earth? Even doctors can't explain it. Maybe consider both sides before denying God. Youtube has a clip when friends witnessed Sam Kinisons death. Check it out or stay closed and feel free to deny God. God doesn't take impose himself on people who does not want it. It's in the scriptures. Why so aggresive?
I chose those names because they were religious. They lived in a time when people used religion to explain the natural world and the church would burn you at the stake if your scientific convictions were at odds with their teachings. They went ahead and used the scientific method to lay down pillars of our understanding of physics and the universe that still bear a load to this day.

I personally am agnostic and don't deny there is a creator beind all this. I just don't believe in organized religion or that the Bible itself is holy and directly inspired by The Creator. Although I do believe it has many good teachings and if we all followed them the world would be a lot better off. Often times though it's those that preach the loudest that have the biggest burdens of sin among us.

I must admit I agree and see your arguments as fair.
 
well, have you ever read articles or seen interviews with doctors have pasient declared dead. And then come back with remarkable stories about the life beyond this earth? Even doctors can't explain it. Maybe consider both sides before denying God. Youtube has a clip when friends witnessed Sam Kinisons death. Check it out or stay closed and feel free to deny God. God doesn't take impose himself on people who does not want it. It's in the scriptures. Why so aggresive?


I must admit I agree and see your arguments as fair.
I don't mean to come off as aggressive I'm just from NY... :D

Near death experiences, or even being declared dead for a brief period and being revived, are interesting subjects and I would welcome any experiments to see if any solid determinations can be made. Attributing them to God or an afterlife though would just be faith based. Doesn't mean it isn't true it just means there's no proof of that.
 
On a per capita basis, I'm not sure. But in terms of just sheer volume of shit that is published, retractionwatch does an awesome of exposing it. Here is a good NYT article on the recent Lancet HydroxyCloroquine retraction, and a quote from the author of RetractionWatch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/health/virus-journals.html


There are mountains of garbage being published these days because academics are encouraged to focus on volume over quality, journal standards have plummeted, and there are so many journals. Even if you fail peer-review in 4 journals, there are always 100 others you can try and you'll get published in one just based off statistics alone. And that would arguably be fine, except that these low-impact shitty papers are used to shape opinion and policy. If we taught the public to be both scientifically literate and also skeptical, its fine if everything gets published. People would know to take it with a grain of salt. But that isn't how we teach to people approach science anymore. The publically is told that science is above reproach, and if an "expert" says, it must be true.




Most of what stuff you cite happened around the mid-century. Since then, we have stagnated. The last humans landed on the moon almost 50 years ago. The Saturn V rocket that took them still hasn't been surpassed in power. Life expectency saw a linear increase starting early in the century, but has since leveled off, and is even decreasing in some areas. Most of the things on your least are just advances in engineering or logistics. It isn't new fundamental science that provides increased insights into the cosmos. And I don't think technological progress is proof you are right about the underlying science either. People have always made technological progress on flawed ideas. People were building catapults well before calculus came along. People were breeding crops and livestock well before we know what DNA was. Any of these cultures could have used these advances to argue that their superstitious worldviews or flawed science was actually correct.



I don't know if shortcoming is the word I would use because I don't know if we could have been expected to do better. But I do think it is hubris to stand tall and boast about having the wrong answer. I think we are grading ourselves on a curve. Like you can teach a dog a service to understand traffic lights. Smart dog capable of learning? Sure. But will that dog ever understand algebra? Its not even close. The dog will never even be able to conceive that algebra exists as a concept. Likewise you can teach a human algebra, but what higher forms of thought and science are outside of our ability to grasp even if it were handed to us?

Agree with almost all of this. The greed of capitalism has clearly corrupted much of the scientific method which is very very unfortunate. Science is becoming like an assembly line too!
 
Do you have any material/source suggestions for someone looking into the stories in the Bible being far older?

Before the written word we passed on knowledge from the previous generation to the next with stories. These were archetypal stories that had to be memorable to stand the test of time. So these stories had to be written symbolically, and it had to resonate with intrinsic human values. People who dismiss or support the Bible on scientific accuracy are looking at it from the wrong perspective. A great example are the flood myths. Fundamentalists claim that Noah's flood is a literal account based on the vast amounts of flood myths found all over the world, but the correct way to view it is that the flood myth represents a story that is archetypal and unchanging in human civilizations. I can go into more depth, but the summary of the story is that its a warning against societies that lose their intrinsic human values and become overly corrupt. We also see stories like the Tower of Babylon whose meanings continue to stand the test of time. When things get too big, they inevitably fall under their own weight, which is the opposite of the modern oxymoronic phrase: 'too big to fail'. Standard Oil and what happened to the Rockefellers is a good modern example. These types of archetypal stories are found all over the world in civilizations that predate the Bible. It's important to think psychologically about why people believed in these stories. Why did anyone believe in the 10 commandments? Its because it resonates with intrinsic human values, and the meaning behind each law is something we can understand without much convincing.

I don't really have a good answer for you to start as far as reading materials, but I would recommend trying to see religious texts from a different perspective. One of the most helpful things that happened in my life was having my family split into Buddhism and Catholicism. I was exposed to a lot of parallel stories like the Birth of the Buddha in the City of Paradise and the biblical story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. This gave me some foundation to realize that these stories shouldn't be taken as literal accounts of history, but to derive the truths about human nature from them instead. Its what allowed me to resist silly ideas like creationism (I was forced to go through private Catholic school), and focus on trying to understand anthropology & archaeology. I also grew up reading the Greek myths as a child, and that gave me an appreciation for religious teachings. Who knows how old some of these archetypal stories are. Religious texts from the oldest recorded civilizations in history like Mesopotamia and Egypt have stories that contain similar meanings as some of the stories in the Bible.

The Bible is a mysterious book that's come together in a "miraculous" fashion and has outlasted all known civilization. The casual dismissal by modern people of the Bible is a grave mistake. Look at what the Bible did for the West despite the errors of the Church that read them as literal accounts of history (completely understandable before the scientific revolution). The underlying belief that all are equal before God was a Christian idea, and it gave birth to the modern legal system as well as civil rights. It laid the foundation for the West to unify and come out of the dark ages, and because of this foundation, the West managed to get such a massive lead on the rest of the world that they conquered most of it. So this idea of the intrinsic human value seems to be a metaphysical human truth that gives prosperity to the societies that embrace it. The proof is in the pudding as you could say, and its at a great loss to abandon these teachings. The scientific revolution taking out the Christian roots from the West is what lead to fascism in Nazi Germany and Marxism in the Soviet Union. We have yet to really properly replace these lost values, and the solution is probably in the marriage of science and these religious teachings. These teachings are not to be abandoned. We learned what happens when humans think we can decide our own values against intrinsic human nature. Abandoning the subconscious, our human roots, for intellect and rationalism has left a gap that allowed demonic idealogies to take hold and create bloodbaths for power. We're technologically way too powerful now to be complacent about this. Imagine the absolute horror that supercomputer AIs will bring if birthed under neomarxism, facism, or post modernism.
 
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On a per capita basis, I'm not sure. But in terms of just sheer volume of shit that is published, retractionwatch does an awesome of exposing it. Here is a good NYT article on the recent Lancet HydroxyCloroquine retraction, and a quote from the author of RetractionWatch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/health/virus-journals.html


There are mountains of garbage being published these days because academics are encouraged to focus on volume over quality, journal standards have plummeted, and there are so many journals. Even if you fail peer-review in 4 journals, there are always 100 others you can try and you'll get published in one just based off statistics alone. And that would arguably be fine, except that these low-impact shitty papers are used to shape opinion and policy. If we taught the public to be both scientifically literate and also skeptical, its fine if everything gets published. People would know to take it with a grain of salt. But that isn't how we teach to people approach science anymore. The publically is told that science is above reproach, and if an "expert" says, it must be true.

We both agree that what scientists and the scientific consensus says is not the "truth". Instead I am claiming that the scientific consensus the most comprehensive evaluation of the current data set done by the most qualified experts on the subject matter. Now it still could be wrong as new data can overturn any theory but we should currently base our policy on this consensus over the opinions of laymen not familiar with the data set. There are exceptions of course and those will most likely pertain to new fields without a robust background of research and study, even then it will most likely be peers that overturn a practice/theory.

To add, I absolutely agree that the peer review process can and should be modified and improved. At the fundamental level without the economic incentives I don't see a better method of corroborating new findings. I'd love to hear your thoughts on another system of verification scientists could use.

Most of what stuff you cite happened around the mid-century. Since then, we have stagnated. The last humans landed on the moon almost 50 years ago. The Saturn V rocket that took them still hasn't been surpassed in power. Life expectency saw a linear increase starting early in the century, but has since leveled off, and is even decreasing in some areas. Most of the things on your least are just advances in engineering or logistics. It isn't new fundamental science that provides increased insights into the cosmos. And I don't think technological progress is proof you are right about the underlying science either. People have always made technological progress on flawed ideas. People were building catapults well before calculus came along. People were breeding crops and livestock well before we know what DNA was. Any of these cultures could have used these advances to argue that their superstitious worldviews or flawed science was actually correct.

Those were just the ones off the top of my head, a few more recent breakthroughs.

Biology:

- Complete mapping of the Human Genome
- Full cloning of an adult mammal
- Stem cell breakthroughs that could pave the way for 3D printing of organs
- Robotic limbs controlled by the brain

Chemistry:

- Nano pesticides that will enable the feeding of 10 Billion people world wide
- Metal Organic Frameworks that can provide clean water for billions around the globe

Physics:
- Don't have to tell you...

People that were breeding crops had an underlying knowledge of inheritable traits through their experience and testing, people developing catapults were using the scientific method to test and develop more robust designs. Do you sincerely believe as a scientist yourself that any of these advancements could have been possible with another framework outside of the scientific method?

I don't know if shortcoming is the word I would use because I don't know if we could have been expected to do better. But I do think it is hubris to stand tall and boast about having the wrong answer. I think we are grading ourselves on a curve. Like you can teach a dog a service to understand traffic lights. Smart dog capable of learning? Sure. But will that dog ever understand algebra? Its not even close. The dog will never even be able to conceive that algebra exists as a concept. Likewise you can teach a human algebra, but what higher forms of thought and science are outside of our ability to grasp even if it were handed to us?

There is no way a person can fathom 11 dimensions of space or an event without a beginning as they are contrary to our everyday macroscopic existence. Mathematics will be the key as it is truly the language the universe and the only way those concepts can be expressed to us.
 
No it's a bogus psych theory that produced results that don't replicate.

Are you skeptical of the mind and consciousness being material and an emergent property of multiple neurons? As a Materialist myself I don't see any evidence for any other conclusion.
 
Ok so corruption with scientists is an issue but not a major problem, is this what you're stating? And the people that that mistrust the entire scientific community because of a few corrupt scientists are being cynical?

There is no such thing as an issue or a problem, there are trade offs. The question is what trade offs are individuals willing to make and which ones are they not willing to make.

From what I see they don't know who to trust, so they don't bother trusting anyone.
 
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