Mir's all time status?

[spankdaddy]

He is a lot of things, but his lack of toughness has always been his biggest weakness.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not tough compared to regular people.

 

[Cooliox]

Why does everyone have JDS and Cain on the all time list?

Cain has 13 fights in his career. An already, he's been knocked the F out once.
He was dropped a few more times by Kongo, who also took him down I believe?

Seriously, Cain's on the way there for sure. But he has much more to prove in the UFC.

JDS, now here's a guy who's proven much more than Cain has. He's defeated a long list of top MMA HW guys, past and present.

Cain has wins over a Big Nog who was already stopped by Mir.
He has a win over Ben Rothwell. A close win against Kongo.

Who else? Yea, Lesnar who returned from Diverticulitis that wasn't even fully out of his system.

Bigfoot twice?

Come on. He's got plenty more he needs to prove.

His biggest win is JDS. And they're at 1-1 right now. This 3rd fight will dictate the true tone. I think Cain is very overrated. I think he's really good. But he's no way all-time. He was never unstoppable.

JDS on the other hand, looked unstoppable in all his fights except the Cain fight. 1 bad day I guess. He was never in trouble against anyone else. He actually beat everyone really decisively.

Again, Cain was dropped by Kongo, taken down by Lesnar, Knocked out cold by JDS.

These guys still have to prove themselves. Cain's a good wrestler, and his biggest threat is surely Cormier who's as good a wrestler. But Cormier doesn't want to fight him.
I'd like to see Cain VS Barnett. Cain VS Mir. Cain VS Werdum.

Let him face some diversity.

Mir has lasted through a big generation gap. He was there during the early days, and despite the career-ending injury... he's managed to remain significant even till today.

Props to him for that. He outlasted Fedor, Big Nog, AA, Sylvia, Couture... well, everyone except for Barnett.

 

[Hanri]

Sure, but that doesn't mean he's not tough compared to regular people.

Sure, but for example Pat Barry has great grappling compared to regular people that doesnt mean that we should say he is a good grappler.

 

[spankdaddy]

Sure, but for example Pat Barry has great grappling compared to regular people that doesnt mean that we should say he is a good grappler.

I'm just trying to give Mir some credit there. I think he's terribly overrated.

BTW Hanri, I love your equation.

 

[Le Smish Smosh**]

His biggest weakness, motorcycle accident aside, was his continuous refusal to train at a proper camp.. imagine that if Mir, after losing to Freeman, went and signed up with extreme couture or something? His cardio would have been better, his clinch and wrestling game would have been better..
No, instead he surrounded himself with a bunch of "yes-men", and didn't develop his potential.. and while joining jackson's was a good move, it may have been too little too late at this stage of his career

Still, the things he achieved based on pure talent alone are pretty amazing, top 10 for sure and a future HoF inductee

 

[BaliShagSmoke]

It is extremely hard to look at Mir's career and NOT think 'Dennis Hallman'. The 2 wins over Nogueira are stellar, but there's some asterisks next to his other big wins.

I don't think anyone considered Tim Sylvia to be in the World's top 3 even when he was Champion the first time. Mir had to beat Sylvia to get the HW belt, so no knocks against Mir for facing lesser competition or any of that bullshit.... but, I don't think a win over Sylvia elevates Mir's status all that much.

Of course I will be fair and state that Fedor's and Nog's wins over Sylvia don't do much for their statuses either. All three HW's should have and did beat Sylvia.

When Fedor beat Cro Cop in 2005, that was an awesome achievement. When Mir beat Cro Cop in 2010, not so much. Cro Cop had already confessed to having no motivation before being beaten by JDS (he even went so far as to say he imagined himself fishing while walking out to the cage) and his career and world ranking were both on the down slide.

So where does Mir rank? Well, after JDS's and Cain's careers are over, I guess we'll have to compare those two's accomplishments against a highly skilled Jiu-Jitsu FIghter who introduced never-before seen in the UFC submissions, proved his knowledge of the game when commentating, and had some very good wins against some bad losses. Tough to say until JDS and Cain retire. Those two might have peaked and in that case, Mir definitely accomplished more. Or...

 

[dhole]

His only win worth mentioning is a TKO over Nog

It must still hurt for you to think that he destroyed his arm. If that is the only win you think is worthwhile....

 

[L0ki]

It is extremely hard to look at Mir's career and NOT think 'Dennis Hallman'. The 2 wins over Nogueira are stellar, but there's some asterisks next to his other big wins.

I don't think anyone considered Tim Sylvia to be in the World's top 3 even when he was Champion the first time. Mir had to beat Sylvia to get the HW belt, so no knocks against Mir for facing lesser competition or any of that bullshit.... but, I don't think a win over Sylvia elevates Mir's status all that much.

Of course I will be fair and state that Fedor's and Nog's wins over Sylvia don't do much for their statuses either. All three HW's should have and did beat Sylvia.

When Fedor beat Cro Cop in 2005, that was an awesome achievement. When Mir beat Cro Cop in 2010, not so much. Cro Cop had already confessed to having no motivation before being beaten by JDS (he even went so far as to say he imagined himself fishing while walking out to the cage) and his career and world ranking were both on the down slide.

So where does Mir rank? Well, after JDS's and Cain's careers are over, I guess we'll have to compare those two's accomplishments against a highly skilled Jiu-Jitsu FIghter who introduced never-before seen in the UFC submissions, proved his knowledge of the game when commentating, and had some very good wins against some bad losses. Tough to say until JDS and Cain retire. Those two might have peaked and in that case, Mir definitely accomplished more. Or...

Tim was 15-0 walking into the Frank Mir fight.


You can't downplay his wins over Nog and Cro Cop and up play his win over Tim.

That's trying to have it both ways and if that's the case, then it seems like you might not like Frank.

Tim was a top 5 HW legitimately. He wrecked the guy that beat Randy.

Frank will forever have the title of being the first guy to TKO and submit Big Nog.

He still tooled Roy, Kongo and got Brock and KO'd Cro Cop.

Those stats aren't something that can just be relegated to the ether.


I gotta say to "You can't think Frank Mir and not think Dennis Hallman" it's completely ridiculous.

I think very few people thinks that.

 

[Cooliox]

and also the first guy to derail Lesnar.

 

[BORCAT]

He's definitely top 20 HW all time (currently)

 

[bjpenngoat]

lol how the hell can frank mir be top 5 hw all time? Some of you guys are delusional.

Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Cain
Jds
Barnett
coleman
Randy

have all had markedly better careers at hw than Mir. Sometimes its not WHO you beat but its WHO you lose to. His losses are inexcusable to Vera, pan de pano and Carwin.

 

[GrindingANARCHY]

Top 10

 

[Pixel Fist]

#1 Fedor
#2 Big Nog
#3 Cro Cop
#4 Vovchanchyn
#5 Cain/JDS
#6 Cain/JDS
#7 Barnett
#8 Mir

 

[Paul Kersey]

lol how the hell can frank mir be top 5 hw all time? Some of you guys are delusional.

Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Cain
Jds
Barnett
coleman
Randy

have all had markedly better careers at hw than Mir. Sometimes its not WHO you beat but its WHO you lose to. His losses are inexcusable to Vera, pan de pano and Carwin.

What about Randy and Tim ? And Barnett should be higher.

 

[BaliShagSmoke]

Tim was 15-0 walking into the Frank Mir fight.


You can't downplay his wins over Nog and Cro Cop and up play his win over Tim...

Not what I was doing at all. I down played Mir's wins over Cro Cop and Tim. I fully respect Mir's 2 wins over Nog.

I also downplayed Fedor and Nog's wins over Tim. I'm trying to be fair- Tim Sylvia does not make any of the HW's in the GOAT discussion look better.

And so I come to my Dennis Hallman comparison- both have awesome wins on their resume against (1) legend in their weight classes. Of course Mir accomplished a lot more than Hallman in his weight class, but I don't think Mir's whole resume is all that impressive for a GOAT contender.

 

[L0ki]

Not what I was doing at all. I down played Mir's wins over Cro Cop and Tim. I fully respect Mir's 2 wins over Nog.

I also downplayed Fedor and Nog's wins over Tim. I'm trying to be fair- Tim Sylvia does not make any of the HW's in the GOAT discussion look better.

And so I come to my Dennis Hallman comparison- both have awesome wins on their resume against (1) legend in their weight classes. Of course Mir accomplished a lot more than Hallman in his weight class, but I don't think Mir's whole resume is all that impressive for a GOAT contender.

The disclaimer I issued was that the topic was by no means putting Mir into HW GOAT discussion, let alone GOAT.


It seems fairly unanimous that Frank is a top 10 all timer, with a few outliers saying he should be top 20, and a few saying top 5.

 

[lfd0311]

I don't think Mir is one of the best of all time. He is and was a very, very good fighter, but I don't think he ever recovered from that accident. Mir is almost 10 years removed from the heavyweight title, a title he never defended. You can't be considered an all time great with those types of credentials, especially when he was fighting in a relatively weak HW divison.

 

[BaliShagSmoke]

The disclaimer I issued was that the topic was by no means putting Mir into HW GOAT discussion, let alone GOAT.


It seems fairly unanimous that Frank is a top 10 all timer, with a few outliers saying he should be top 20, and a few saying top 5.

No confusion from me about that. I should have explained that when I say GOAT discussion, I am saying Greatest of All Time, Top 5.

So really, in hindsight, I shouldn't have said anything about Mir/Nog/Fedor/Cro Cop and just stuck to my main point that since Mir is a fringe Top 5 or Top 10 all time HW (depending on who is judging him), it would be better to wait until JDS and Cain's careers have ended to make any judgement.

Bottom line, I am not a Frank hater. I actually enjoy his fights, pre-fight confidence, and intelligent commentating. I just think that he will be eclipsed by JDS/Cain and then as the sport gets older, he will drop out of all time lists completely.

 

[Amerikuracana]

It's hard to say.. HW has a lack of extended excellence. LOL at people having him far ahead of Barnett.. Half as many wins, worse losses, best wins mostly against guys out of their prime, losing head to head while HE is the younger man.. Barnett > Mir soooooo easy ladies..


Also, LOL at Mir ahead of Werdum.. The Fedor win places Werdum ahead of Mir rather easily. I would say Mir is right next to (in front of) BF Silva, somewhere in the bottom half of the top 10.

Fedor
Nog
Barnett
Cain
Werdum
JDS
Igor
CC (Could be behind Mir with the 5+ year mail-it-in streak tbh)
Sylvia
Mir??

Could be there, but you could easily make a case for Overeem or Randy (205 wins don't count at HW) being ahead of him.. Really, I'm not sure how ahead of Mark Hunt Mir should be..

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

So far it looks like this for me

Fedor
Cain
Nog
JDS
Cro Cop
Barnett
Couture
Coleman
Igor
Mir