Social Minimum Wage now at $20 an hour in California

[Gutter Chris]

Part of the right wing movement involves making a concerted effort to convince everyone that the shit falling on everyone's heads is good shit, and it's only right that the rich drop that shit.

I don't begrudge anyone makin it , and I know I've changed a lot the last few years ....but I still maintain a very healthy skepticism of the truly elite and would truly love to see them humbled . I was really hoping occupy Wallstreet would (redacted) someone and bring back fear of the common folk.

 

[RoastBeast]

Corporatist argument. Oh noes we cant ever pay people what it costs to rent a place because they'll just raise the rents even more!! Arguing for the status quo just to argue for the status quo.

Living wages can be mandated

Unions can be strengthened

Lawsuits on inflated housing costs can reign in the fact that this happens

Profitability can be capped to a reasonable degree where a company is still profitable but isn't beyond the scope of normal commerce

Stock buy-backs can and should be made illegal, that insulates corporations from seeing their stock market value crash as a result of their own mismanagement.

I'm not the one that creates the rules of capitalism. You can't mandate a living wage because as soon as you up the minimum wage, the prices of everything just goes up with them. The Government can't mandate every company that offers goods and services to put a cap on their prices to accommodate minimum wage workers.

You can't just cap the greed of business owners and have them make "reasonable" profits. I'm good with what you're saying about stock buy backs and I'm also on board with closing tax loopholes as well as the government actually cracking down on monopolies and a host of other things but you can't just force business owners to cap their own profits in some arbitrary manner.

 

[Dirt Road Soldier]

Are you from 1985 or something?

It's been very well documented that few if any people (especially white collar workers) actually work 40 hours a week. The computer, the internet, cell phones and everything related to it have greatly reduced the amount of time needed to keep the same or higher level of productivity than before.

Google something like "40 hour week obsolete" and you'll get your answers.

Last March, Bernie Sanders actually introduced the 32 hour work week act

NEWS: Sanders Introduces Legislation to Enact a 32-Hour Workweek with No Loss in Pay » Senator Bernie Sanders

WASHINGTON, March 13 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Chairman of the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions (HELP) today announced that this Thursday he will introduce legislation to establish a standard 32-hour workweek in America with no loss in pay – an important step...

www.sanders.senate.gov

No, I just know how to easily fill a 40 hour work week. If you are twiddling your thumbs at work you aren't doing your job. Unless you happen to be a professional thumb twiddler in which case more power to you.

 

[jk7707]

I don't know what you're talking about either. Sounds like your office people shouldn't be making much money either if a high school kid could do a job that is more difficult than theirs.

Ok, fast food is meant for kids and young adults working their way through college. I suppose it can also be meant for people who don't want to do anything with their lives and are content with living paycheck to paycheck with a roommate in a small apartment.

What it's not meant for is to be able to support a mortgage and a spouse and kids. If that's the life that someone wants, then they should probably not work fast food. They should also not fold clothes at Kohls or push carts at Target if that's what they aspire to. I've held jobs like that in my past. They were a means to an end so I could get to where I wanted to be. If someone peaks at flipping burgers, then their lack of success is not due to the fast food joint being greedy. It's due to their own lack of drive.

So when did this become the "rule" that you are assuming it is? There is absolutely no way, that all of these jobs could possibly be filled by "kids and young adults working their way through college". So why should someone who is putting in 40 hours a week at these jobs not be able to afford a place to live? The other way of looking at it is that the federal government is making up the difference by essentially subsidizing these billion dollar companies like McDonalds and Walmart because they refuse to pay their employees enough to afford basic necessities. Why do you support that?

 

[emefer]

I'm not the one that creates the rules of capitalism. You can't mandate a living wage because as soon as you up the minimum wage, the prices of everything just goes up with them. The Government can't mandate every company that offers goods and services to put a cap on their prices to accommodate minimum wage workers.

You can't just cap the greed of business owners and have them make "reasonable" profits. I'm good with what you're saying about stock buy backs and I'm also on board with closing tax loopholes as well as the government actually cracking down on monopolies and a host of other things but you can't just force business owners to cap their own profits in some arbitrary manner.

Sure you can.

 

[BIKES!]

Minimum wage worker detected

I would be surprised if he works but that would be his/hers/Zers ceiling...

 

[RoastBeast]

So when did this become the "rule" that you are assuming it is? There is absolutely no way, that all of these jobs could possibly be filled by "kids and young adults working their way through college". So why should someone who is putting in 40 hours a week at these jobs not be able to afford a place to live? The other way of looking at it is that the federal government is making up the difference by essentially subsidizing these billion dollar companies like McDonalds and Walmart because they refuse to pay their employees enough to afford basic necessities. Why do you support that?

I don't support subsidizing them. Let them fail and new businesses will spring up because of it.

I'm sorry but every job does not guarantee you an apartment, vehicle, bills, spouse and kids. You can't just push carts at Walmart for 40 years and expect to be able to live a fulfilling life. Your work output has to be equal to or greater than what you're getting in return. If it's not greater or equal, then find another job and let a high school kid rightfully work that low skilled job that anyone could do.

 

[Lucas1980]

Isn't minimum wage what kids in high school make it was for me? I've been working since 12 starting with farm work and then restaurant work and quickly worked my way out of minimum wage with raises from putting in the maximum effort...This shit thinking minimum wage is supposed to be liveable blows my mind.

 

[jk7707]

I don't support subsidizing them. Let them fail and new businesses will spring up because of it.

I'm sorry but every job does not guarantee you an apartment, vehicle, bills, spouse and kids. You can't just push carts at Walmart for 40 years and expect to be able to live a fulfilling life. Your work output has to be equal to or greater than what you're getting in return. If it's not greater or equal, then find another job and let a high school kid rightfully work that low skilled job that anyone could do.

By allowing the companies to pay poverty wages it means many of their employees are going to be using tax payer funded public assistance. So you either force companies to pay more (through minimum wage increases) or continue the cycle.

I didn't say anything about a spouse and kids. A vehicle is a must for most people to find a job period. And sorry, but if you're working full time in this country, you should be able to afford to put food in your table and a roof over your head. Why is that a radical concept to you?

That's the whole reason the minimum wage was created in the first place. FDR said:

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

Weird, I wonder why he never mentioned high school kids and young adults paying for college. Hmmm...

 

[terrapin]

I'm not the one that creates the rules of capitalism. You can't mandate a living wage because as soon as you up the minimum wage, the prices of everything just goes up with them. The Government can't mandate every company that offers goods and services to put a cap on their prices to accommodate minimum wage workers.

You can't just cap the greed of business owners and have them make "reasonable" profits. I'm good with what you're saying about stock buy backs and I'm also on board with closing tax loopholes as well as the government actually cracking down on monopolies and a host of other things but you can't just force business owners to cap their own profits in some arbitrary manner.

Yes you can though. That's the thing.... you can make people pay more. We don't have to buy everything out there. We just buy the things we need. People can pay $0.20 more for every burger to give that minimum wage. It's okay.

It's a terrible, terrible worldview you have that thinks the only way things can work is by exploiting other human beings.

 

[RoastBeast]

By allowing the companies to pay poverty wages it means many of their employees are going to be using tax payer funded public assistance. So you either force companies to pay more (through minimum wage increases) or continue the cycle.

I didn't say anything about a spouse and kids. A vehicle is a must for most people to find a job period. And sorry, but if you're working full time in this country, you should be able to afford to put food in your table and a roof over your head. Why is that a radical concept to you?

That's the whole reason the minimum wage was created in the first place. FDR said:

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

Weird, I wonder why he never mentioned high school kids and young adults paying for college. Hmmm...

I get the utopian aspect of it but I've already gone over this. You raise minimum wage by a significant amount and it just raises the prices of everything else on the market.

If you force companies to pay more, the market just adjusts to eat up those extra dollars. It's just how capitalism is. People are going to capitalize on the fact that minimum wage workers got a nice bump. It's not me doing it and it's not me saying it's right or a good thing. I'm just saying that it's how the world works.

 

[RoastBeast]

Yes you can though. That's the thing.... you can make people pay more. We don't have to buy everything out there. We just buy the things we need. People can pay $0.20 more for every burger to give that minimum wage. It's okay.

It's a terrible, terrible worldview you have that thinks the only way things can work is by exploiting other human beings.

That's just lazy thinking. You can't tell people what to buy and not buy. You can't tell them to only buy things they need. You can't tell them that they need to continue to eat at a fast food restaurant if they don't want to pay the extra prices.

I never said it's the only way things can work but once you start thinking about how capitalism works, then you realize that it's kind of like the dating world. Some people are luckier than others, some work harder than others and get what they want. Some are unlucky and some are lazy and wind up with awful and unattractive spouses. There's no guarantee that you can live a happy life but you can certainly up your odds by putting in the work.

If the rules were as simple as you guys are making them out to be, everything would be fixed by now. Minimum wage hikes will never give minimum wage earners anything other than a temporary influx of a small amount of extra cash that will wind up being swallowed up by the market in short order.

 

[jk7707]

I get the utopian aspect of it but I've already gone over this. You raise minimum wage by a significant amount and it just raises the prices of everything else on the market.

If you force companies to pay more, the market just adjusts to eat up those extra dollars. It's just how capitalism is. People are going to capitalize on the fact that minimum wage workers got a nice bump. It's not me doing it and it's not me saying it's right or a good thing. I'm just saying that it's how the world works.

This is literally the exact same argument made against creating the minimum wage in the first place. Yet it didn't destroy the economy. It's bullshit. This subservience to corporate interest over the basic needs of employees hasn't always existed. FDR proved they could be reigned in.

 

[Prutfis]

I'm not the one that creates the rules of capitalism. You can't mandate a living wage because as soon as you up the minimum wage, the prices of everything just goes up with them. The Government can't mandate every company that offers goods and services to put a cap on their prices to accommodate minimum wage workers.

You can't just cap the greed of business owners and have them make "reasonable" profits. I'm good with what you're saying about stock buy backs and I'm also on board with closing tax loopholes as well as the government actually cracking down on monopolies and a host of other things but you can't just force business owners to cap their own profits in some arbitrary manner.

Funny how so many countries do it. Just another thing where the us is a joke compared to most of the western world.

 

[RoastBeast]

This is literally the exact same argument made against creating the minimum wage in the first place. Yet it didn't destroy the economy. It's bullshit. This subservience to corporate interest over the basic needs of employees hasn't always existed. FDR proved they could be reigned in.

Yet here we are 80 years later and there still isn't a successful minimum wage worker in sight.

If your work output does not equal a home, car, bills and all the essentials plus entertainment....then you have to be subsidized in some manner. That's kind of just how life in general works and has always worked since the beginning of time.

If you spent all your time building houses and selling them and I spent all my time building dream catchers and selling them, you'd be living high on the hog and I'd probably be living in a van down by the river because my work output is not very valuable to society and yours is. I don't deserve my own apartment because I'm merely making dreamcatchers.

 

[Belaya Smert]

20 dollar an hour minimum wage in West Virginia might mean something.

 

[Osculater]

A happy meal and a number 1 combo with an apple pie will be $66.69

 

[RoastBeast]

Funny how so many countries do it. Just another thing where the us is a joke compared to most of the western world.

The US is a joke? It's easily the best country that has ever existed on this planet. I'm sorry that being successful here requires putting in a little effort, but it does. If people want to not put in effort and be cared for by the government, there's probably better countries out there for that.

It's not the responsibility of the guy who put a ton of time and effort into his career to subsidize your life because you chose to flip burgers instead of taking classes or going into the trades to make something better of yourself.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Isn't minimum wage was kids in high school make it was for me and I've been working since 12 starting with farm work and then restaurant work and quickly worked my way out of minimum wage with raises from putting in the maximum effort...This shit thinking minimum wage is supposed to be liveable blows my mind.

I'm guessing your employer is keeping you on out of charity more than anything else.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

I don't support subsidizing them. Let them fail and new businesses will spring up because of it.

I'm sorry but every job does not guarantee you an apartment, vehicle, bills, spouse and kids. You can't just push carts at Walmart for 40 years and expect to be able to live a fulfilling life. Your work output has to be equal to or greater than what you're getting in return. If it's not greater or equal, then find another job and let a high school kid rightfully work that low skilled job that anyone could do.

I think the thing what makes this so hard is you're trying to explain the sacrifice and joy of real life to people who will fight and scrap and claw to never have to experience real life at all.

I run my own (very) small business and I look back on my life working shitty jobs for other people and it's just crazy how much better life is when you take some real responsibility for you own happiness and go out and make it happen.

These people will never experience that because they just don't have that spark of life in them, so it's impossible to reason with them.

They just want to sit on a couch all day and masturbate and play video games and put in the absolute bare minimum at whatever joe job they have or (ideally) manage to qualify for some kind of government assistance so they can avoid even that.

That's why there's such a push in this younger generation to pathologize everything and why the young can't wait to list off all the shit they have wrong with them.

Their ideal is to get some kind of permanent welfare and just sit around playing xbox all day.