Mike Pence caught on wiretap

[Rational Poster]

So you honestly think it is a bigger scandal that Trump said "Obama wiretapped me" than it is for the Obama administration to have been widely surveilling Trump's transition team?

Except that isn't what happened.

The intelligence community was monitoring foreigners that happened to be talking to Trump's team.

 

[Seano]

Over/under on nothing coming from this and its forgotten by the end of the week?

 

[Seano]

Except that isn't what happened.

The intelligence community was monitoring foreigners that happened to be talking to Trump's team.

oops! They just accidentally surveilled everyone on Trumps team.

Surely you don't truly believe that. I mean, we all take sides but sometimes the absurdity is too much.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

1. Hahaha, all the liberals are now strict constructionists! You guys should really get behind Gorsuch then.

2. Suppose a man saw that there was always an unmarked van outside his house and he found a listening device in his living room. He says, "Th e FBI is following me and listening to my conversations." Later we found out that he wasn't being followed, they just listened to conversation s in the house and that they weren't targeting him, but his wife. Was that man lying? Hardly.

3. It's becoming clear that we haven't reached the bottom of this yet. There's a lot more meat to this story thus far than you are willing to admit. Let it play out. I think we're going to see people go to jail before we're through.

"I mean what I say, and I say what I mean" used to be a great thing.
Now it's semantic horseshit that people seem to love.

 

[Fawlty]

This has to be pointed out again. What has happened here is that Trump has created an imaginary axis for this story to play out on. With the public knowledge that his campaign has been under investigation, he makes a false claim related to it. In this way, the evidence that has to be looked at to examine the claim- which is the same public evidence of the investigation- can be spun no matter what into the idea that Trump was vindicated. How are people not seeing this? It's less sophisticated than three card monty. It's fucking two card monty. This shit doesn't even fly at the grifter's table in Central Park.

 

[Rational Poster]

oops! They just accidentally surveilled everyone on Trumps team.

Surely you don't truly believe that. I mean, we all take sides but sometimes the absurdity is too much.

I think it's pretty reasonable, whether intentional or not it doesn't really make a difference.

We're allowed to monitor foreigners and if Trump team was talking to foreigners that happened to be getting monitored I don't think it's a good look for his team.

You're acting like this is some sort of vindication.. but it's more likely going to turn into the opposite.

 

[Seano]

Its not reasonable at all. ITs just the story they've decided to stick to.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

"I mean what I say, and I say what I mean" used to be a great thing.
Now it's semantic horseshit that people seem to love.

Suppose Trump was aware that the Obama administration was surveilling trump Tower and members of his transition team. Suppose he knew or suspected that some of this surveillance was contrary to law, as it is now coming clear that it is. Is it unreasonable to assume that he might be targeted? I don't think so. Or should Trump resign unless Obama personally snuck into Trump Tower and placed a tap on his wires?

Treating Trump's statement as the scandal rather than illegal surveillance of politicians boggles my mind, especially since we've had a president resign over just trying to surveill his political opponents.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

I think it's pretty reasonable, whether intentional or not it doesn't really make a difference.

We're allowed to monitor foreigners and if Trump team was talking to foreigners that happened to be getting monitored I don't think it's a good look for his team.

You're acting like this is some sort of vindication.. but it's more likely going to turn into the opposite.

It is possible to accidentally monitor people you weren't warranted to spy on. When it happens in the case of American citizens, or surveillance organizations are strictly required not to mention the names of those people, even in their reports. They are considered masked. Unmasking them by connecting their words caught by surveillance not directed at them with their identities is called unmasking, and is a felony. We know that this happened with Flynn, and it seems like that's what happened with Pence.

So yeah, this is definitively some sort of vindication, but not yet a full vindication.

 

[Seano]

The more that comes out, the thinner the story gets. IT seems sinister and then every single story pans out to be nothing and then the dems can't explain why everyone around Trump is on wire taps. I mean, not wire taps but er..... surveillance...... or something.

There's been some new controversial story that was supposed to take down Trump almost every other day and yet, here we are. Trump is still there.

I'd like to see our citizens on the left insist that their elected officials get to work. If Trump fails, I'd like to see it be because the libs have a better idea, not because they refuse to work with the guy.

 

[Der Eisbär]

I wondered where they were backpeddeling too next. I guess now since we know the wiretapping happened, the new position is supposed to be that it was a good thing...

I like how literally everything you say is the opposite of reality lmfao.

 

[Rational Poster]

It is possible to accidentally monitor people you weren't warranted to spy on. When it happens in the case of American citizens, or surveillance organizations are strictly required not to mention the names of those people, even in their reports. They are considered masked. Unmasking them by connecting their words caught by surveillance not directed at them with their identities is called unmasking, and is a felony. We know that this happened with Flynn, and it seems like that's what happened with Pence.

So yeah, this is definitively some sort of vindication, but not yet a full vindication.

If it is determined the sitting vice president is working with foreigners, I somehow suspect whoever released his name will get a pass.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

If it is determined the sitting vice president is working with foreigners, I somehow suspect whoever released his name will get a pass.

Agreed. If the surveillance exposes a huge Trump/Pence - Putin conspiracy, then that would be the bigger scandal than the illegal surveillance itself. In such a case,I'd like to see mass resignations of everyone involved and aggressive prosecution where warranted. And yes, I think the surveillance would be very forgivable in such a case.

But the people who are acting as if Trump is a paranoid liar for saying Obama was spying on him are ignoring the fact that it looks more and more like that was the case. At the very least, we know that Obama's people were spying on Trump's people, in some cases illegally. And that is a bigger scandal than Trump's accusation being inaccurate.

 

[Rational Poster]

Agreed. If the surveillance exposes a huge Trump/Pence - Putin conspiracy, then that would be the bigger scandal than the illegal surveillance itself. In such a case,I'd like to see mass resignations of everyone involved and aggressive prosecution where warranted. And yes, I think the surveillance would be very forgivable in such a case.

But the people who are acting as if Trump is a paranoid liar for saying Obama was spying on him are ignoring the fact that it looks more and more like that was the case. At the very least, we know that Obama's people were spying on Trump's people, in some cases illegally. And that is a bigger scandal than Trump's accusation being inaccurate.

I think the FBI knowing what foreigners to monitor in order to eavesdrop on Trump and his team say more about what the FBI is up to than just about anything else. I don't it's a coincidence at all and I don't think it's good for Trump.

 

[sangreporsangre]

How much you wanna bet they got him on tape talking to a secret boyfriend or setting up some motel action with male escorts.

 

[Rational Poster]

How much you wanna bet they got him on tape talking to a secret boyfriend or setting up some motel action with male escorts.

 

[HomerThompson]

Agreed. If the surveillance exposes a huge Trump/Pence - Putin conspiracy, then that would be the bigger scandal than the illegal surveillance itself. In such a case,I'd like to see mass resignations of everyone involved and aggressive prosecution where warranted. And yes, I think the surveillance would be very forgivable in such a case.

But the people who are acting as if Trump is a paranoid liar for saying Obama was spying on him are ignoring the fact that it looks more and more like that was the case. At the very least, we know that Obama's people were spying on Trump's people, in some cases illegally. And that is a bigger scandal than Trump's accusation being inaccurate.

It's not illegal to unmask the citizens if they are discussing a criminal matter, or if you need to look further into the context of the conversations to really understand the intelligence you're gathering. You've made some blatantly false statements here to bolster your boy. Maybe you should fact check yourself first.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

It's not illegal to unmask the citizens if they are discussing a criminal matter, or if you need to look further into the context of the conversations to really understand the intelligence you're gathering. You've made some blatantly false statements here to bolster your boy. Maybe you should fact check yourself first.

I already stated in response to Rational poster that I agreed this is not a problem if Pence can be shown to have been involved in wrongdoing. As of yet, he hasn't been accused of any crime, and if he isn't, then unmasking him was illegal.

This whole mess can play out in several ways, some of which are bad for either or both the Left and Right. My point is that with the information we now have, acting as if it was scandalous for Trump to accuse Obama of wiretapping him is stupid. For sure Obama's people were spying on Trump's people.

What we need to know now is:

1. How extensive that spying was and
2. Did they turn up any evidence of wrongdoing?

 

[HomerThompson]

I already stated in response to Rational poster that I agreed this is not a problem if Pence can be shown to have been involved in wrongdoing. As of yet, he hasn't been accused of any crime, and if he isn't, then unmasking him was illegal.

This whole mess can play out in several ways, some of which are bad for either or both the Left and Right. My point is that with the information we now have, acting as if it was scandalous for Trump to accuse Obama of wiretapping him is stupid. For sure Obama's people were spying on Trump's people.

What we need to know now is:

1. How extensive that spying was and
2. Did they turn up any evidence of wrongdoing?

You completely ignored my second point. Criminality isn't the only standard for unmasking.

 

[P4p Islam]

So you honestly think it is a bigger scandal that Trump said "Obama wiretapped me" than it is for the Obama administration to have been widely surveilling Trump's transition team?

Do you not know how a fisa warrant works? Obama has no authority whether a fisa warrant is issued.


The intel community saw smoke, so they had a judge issue a warrant to see if there was a fire. There was indeed a fire, and members of trumps transition team were caught on the other end of the line via other parties being serveiled. Why would that be a negative scandal for obama?


How many different ways do people need to say "trump wasn't wiretapped and he lied about it" for you to pick up on it?