Mid-air Collusion (Mueller Thread v. 19)

[waiguoren]

Why is it ok that Trump is surrounded by criminals?

I never said it is. However:

Criminals are everywhere. You're a criminal, I'm a criminal. Have you forgotten Lavrenty Beria's famous quotation?

The idea that Trump's inner circle contains a higher percentage of criminals than other presidents has not been demonstrated. No one in his inner circle has been convicted of a crime. Maybe Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman for <12% of the length of the campaign, will be convicted on some tax charges. We will see.

 

[kpt018]

I never said it is. However:

Criminals are everywhere. You're a criminal, I'm a criminal. Have you forgotten Lavrenty Beria's famous quotation?

The idea that Trump's inner circle contains a higher percentage of criminals than other presidents has not been demonstrated. No one in his inner circle has been convicted of a crime. Maybe Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman for <12% of the length of the campaign, will be convicted on some tax charges. We will see.

What qualifies as inner circle? I think if you expand that a bit you'd see that Trump's team is actually more corrupt than other presidencies but if you tighten that up you're right, it hasn't been proven yet.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

 

[waiguoren]

What qualifies as inner circle? I think if you expand that a bit you'd see that Trump's team is actually more corrupt than other presidencies but if you tighten that up you're right, it hasn't been proven yet.

My statement was about "criminals" and not "corrupt people" since the former has an objective measure (criminal conviction) while the other is mostly subjective.

As for the definition of his inner circle, I'd start with his sons and daughter, Kushner, Kelly, Nielsen, Pompeo, Kudlow, Pence. Maybe throw Ross, Matiss and Mulvaney in there. I get the sense he doesn't interact with his other cabinet secretaries on a daily basis. In a normal administration Sessions would be there but obviously Trump is not happy with him.

 

[kpt018]

My statement was about "criminals" and not "corrupt people" since the former has an objective measure (criminal conviction) while the other is mostly subjective.

As for the definition of his inner circle, I'd start with his sons and daughter, Kushner, Kelly, Nielsen, Pompeo, Kudlow, Pence. Maybe throw Ross, Matiss and Mulvaney in there. I get the sense he doesn't interact with his other cabinet secretaries on a daily basis. In a normal administration Sessions would be there but obviously Trump is not happy with him.

Ok, fair distinction.

But I'm curious, do you take issue with higher levels of corruption around the president even if the acts do not rise to the level of criminal convictions? I don't think corruption is as subjective as you think, but I am just asking about how you view it.

For me, using office for personal financial gain is corruption even if it doesn't rise to the level of criminal activity and I have a huge problem with elected officials doing just that.

 

[waiguoren]

Ok, fair distinction.

But I'm curious, do you take issue with higher levels of corruption around the president even if the acts do not rise to the level of criminal convictions? I don't think corruption is as subjective as you think, but I am just asking about how you view it.

For me, using office for personal financial gain is corruption even if it doesn't rise to the level of criminal activity and I have a huge problem with elected officials doing just that.

Sure. Which specific officials do you perceive to be most corrupt, and how?

 

[andnowweknow]

I'm not a Trump supporter.



That's not what I wrote. I wrote that @44nutman "can't find any criminality" on Trump's behalf.

Your tremendously full of shit. Caveating everything doesn't make you smart. And you're clearly a Trump supporter.

 

[Fawlty]

Day 4 of the Manafort jury. I wonder what they are hung up on. The tax evasion should be very cut and dry, so I'm guessing they're having trouble with the whole bank loan fraud, due to the weird circumstances w/the bank exec trying to use the loan to get a job w/Trump.

 

[waiguoren]

Your tremendously full of shit. Caveating everything doesn't make you smart. And you're clearly a Trump supporter.

I love you.

 

[Strychnine]

This is where I have to ask, wouldn't the prosecutor have to supply a reason for choosing who to believe, rather than flip a rhetorical coin? A jury needs to hear evidence, not just "I have nothing more than a hunch that the defendant is lying, so I'm charging him with perjury", don't they? I don't know criminal law, but that doesn't make sense to me. If I were on the jury I'd never accept anything with no evidence to support it. Mueller would need to provide something to them, to use to make their decision. A judge would have to throw out such a BS case presented by a prosecutor, wouldn't they?

@Darkballs would know, he's an experienced prosecutor.

I know, I know... CNN can't ever be right... But Chris Cuomo (who is also a lawyer) has some good points on this. If you have 5 min, it's a good listen/watch.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Day 4 of the Manafort jury. I wonder what they are hung up on. The tax evasion should be very cut and dry, so I'm guessing they're having trouble with the whole bank loan fraud, due to the weird circumstances w/the bank exec trying to use the loan to get a job w/Trump.

They'll split. He's gonna skate.

 

[Darkballs]

Nope. I wrote that you guys haven't found any criminality and so you are falling back on attacking Trump's manliness. That's accurate.

Oh blow it out your ass. When it comes to perjury traps, you're more than happy to speculate what evils the prosecution might engage in. Yet when it comes to the potential future problems for Trump it's strictly a "he hasn't been charged with _____, so discussion must end." It's a stupid double standard that only you are insisting belongs in this thread.

But then again you describe yourself as "someone working in finance on an island in the Pacific." While technically true, there are better ways to describe being a bank teller from Australia.

 

[waiguoren]

While technically true, there are better ways to describe being a bank teller from Australia.

I legit lol'd.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

They'll split. He's gonna skate.

Nah, think he’s toast on atleast a couple of the charges. Prosecution shouldn’t have used Gates, IMO. Didn’t need him and having a dude who’s admitting to being a dirt bag thief as your star witness to save his own ass by blaming someone else doesn’t play well. Should’ve stuck to the facts, which are usually plentiful with financial crimes.

 

[new_mexico1]

Day 4 of the Manafort jury. I wonder what they are hung up on. The tax evasion should be very cut and dry, so I'm guessing they're having trouble with the whole bank loan fraud, due to the weird circumstances w/the bank exec trying to use the loan to get a job w/Trump.

Fake news is saying that the jury is probably going over all the documents meticulously and seeing some evidence for the first time.

 

[HARRISON_3]

Fake news is saying that the jury is probably going over all the documents meticulously and seeing some evidence for the first time.

IIRC, didn't the judge exclude a lot of the documents during trial and was going to allow the jurors time to go over them later?

Makes sense that it's taking a while considering it's a shit load of documents and they're just laypeople poring over them.

18 counts...

 

[kpt018]

Sure. Which specific officials do you perceive to be most corrupt, and how?

According to my own definition (and the one most commonly used) Trump is the worst offender (aside from Manafort) but certainly Ivanka and Jared are are guilty of similar offenses (using their positions to get intellectual property rulings in their favor overseas, for example).

The web of corruption goes further but not sure that would be in line with your "inner circle".

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Oh blow it out your ass. When it comes to perjury traps,

It's such an odd interpretation/talking point.

If he says something that's contradicted by another person's account, that could simply be differing opinions of the events.

To perjure himself the POTUS would have to lie as to established, corroborated facts.

 

[kpt018]

Day 4 of the Manafort jury. I wonder what they are hung up on. The tax evasion should be very cut and dry, so I'm guessing they're having trouble with the whole bank loan fraud, due to the weird circumstances w/the bank exec trying to use the loan to get a job w/Trump.

I'm not paying attention to the details of the trial (and I'm not sure they're available anyway) but tax laws do tend to be pretty cut and dry, with exceptions of course. But the network PM created is apparently really complex and I'd guess it's pretty hard for regular folks to follow along.

Again just my guess but knowing about how some of my former clients set up their businesses it's easy to see how things get complicated quickly and even more so if the person has shit to hide.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Oh blow it out your ass. When it comes to perjury traps, you're more than happy to speculate what evils the prosecution might engage in. Yet when it comes to the potential future problems for Trump it's strictly a "he hasn't been charged with _____, so discussion must end." It's a stupid double standard that only you are insisting belongs in this thread.

But then again you describe yourself as "someone working in finance on an island in the Pacific." While technically true, there are better ways to describe being a bank teller from Australia.