Law Medically transitioning minors

[RoastBeast]

move goalposts however you'd like, it's not my problem. your original post was in response to @kflo saying "He noted that the studies didn’t isolate completed suicide. But did note evidence shows that suicidality rates decreased."

so i explained to you the difference between suicidality and completed suicide.

Terms like "completed suicide" are what the left needs to push their insanely idiotic ideologies.

The terms you guys come up with are hilariously stupid.

You dropped a laugh emoji on that because you thought you were being cute and now you're scuffling to try and pretend like we were talking about suicidality and not suicide.

We've been calling it "suicide" for decades now. Everyone knows what it means and no one felt the need to add anything onto it until progressives started to get backed into a corner with their out of touch with reality ideologies that require word salads and language gymnastics to defend.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

You dropped a laugh emoji on that because you thought you were being cute and now you're scuffling to try and pretend like we were talking about suicidality and not suicide.

We've been calling it "suicide" for decades now. Everyone knows what it means and no one felt the need to add anything onto it until progressives started to get backed into a corner with their out of touch with reality ideologies that require word salads and language gymnastics to defend.

the only post that mentioned "completed suicide" was @kflo's post right above yours who contrasted it with suicidality. so either you're arguing something no one was arguing against, or shamelessly moving goalposts

 

[RoastBeast]

the only post that mentioned "completed suicide" was @kflo's post right above yours who contrasted it with suicidality. so either you're arguing something no one was arguing against, or shamelessly moving goalposts

Completed suicide was the term that the ACLU's lawyer used in the supreme court case the other day to try and muddy the waters when admitting that transitioning minors actually does nothing to prevent them from committing suicide.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Completed suicide was the term that the ACLU's lawyer used in the supreme court case the other day to try and muddy the waters when admitting that transitioning minors actually does nothing to prevent them from committing suicide.

nothing but chance, means, and proficiency can stop an attempted suicide from becoming a "successful" suicide. were you under the impression that puberty blockers would make these people worse at suicide? or instead that it makes more of these people NOT WANT TO commit suicide

 

[RoastBeast]

nothing but chance, means, and proficiency can stop an attempted suicide from becoming a "successful" suicide. were you under the impression that puberty blockers would make these people worse at suicide? or instead that it makes more of these people NOT WANT TO commit suicide

Do you even know how they're coming to the conclusion that these kids are suicidal? If a kid has actually attempted suicide, then that is proof that they are or were suicidal. If a kid says they're suicidal, that may or may not be proof that they are. Likewise, if they say they aren't, that doesn't mean that they necessarily aren't either.

This isn't really science we're talking about. It's psychology with a heavy amount of data collected by just merely trusting what kids or parents are saying.

My friend's kid that transitioned from a girl into a girl that is sort of trying to look like a boy was suicidal and then she found a boyfriend who claims to be gay. When they inevitably break up at some point, she will more than likely be depressed again and will probably have suicidal thoughts. Did the medical treatment she got from her supposed gender dysphoria cure her suicidality or did finding someone to love do that? I'm going to go with the latter.

This stuff is pseudo science and sleight of hand statistics to make people believe things that may or may not be true. You should really question all of it.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Do you even know how they're coming to the conclusion that these kids are suicidal? If a kid has actually attempted suicide, then that is proof that they are or were suicidal. If a kid says they're suicidal, that may or may not be proof that they are.

lmao

 

[fedorthegoat777]

Completed suicide was the term that the ACLU's lawyer used in the supreme court case the other day to try and muddy the waters when admitting that transitioning minors actually does nothing to prevent them from committing suicide.

If you are suicidal. the last thing you need is to cut your nuts off or stitch on a piece of flesh between your legs.

 

[HomeCheese]

I have had like 4-5 parents I know have trans kids which seems like a crazy high amount. One lady let her daughter transition to a man underage and paid for the top surgery, they are rich so no problem.

You see, the daughter was having all kinds of depression and had tried to kill her self. They had to take the door off her bedroom and take turns watching her so she would not try to kill herself. So eventually they let her transition. He has been better and happier ever since.

So, given the circumstances I understand their decision.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Breaking today

Puberty blockers to be banned indefinitely for under-18s across UK

Health secretary says emergency measures banning sale and supply for gender dysphoria will be made indefinite after expert advice

www.theguardian.com

Puberty blockers to be banned indefinitely for under-18s across UK​

Health secretary says emergency measures banning sale and supply for gender dysphoria will be made indefinite after expert advice

Decisions were being taken “based on the evidence and advice of clinicians, not politics or political pressure”, he added.

A clear victory for evidence-based medicine.

 

[Hog-train]

move goalposts however you'd like, it's not my problem. your original post was in response to @kflo saying "He noted that the studies didn’t isolate completed suicide. But did note evidence shows that suicidality rates decreased."

so i explained to you the difference between suicidality and completed suicide.

But the Cass Report said all the studies that say even suicidality decreased were full of methodology problems. And they even go into the details of individual studies to note their problems.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

But the Cass Report said all the studies that say even suicidality decreased were full of methodology problems. And they even go into the details of individual studies to note their problems.

and they are entitled to their flawed interpretation. you are also entitled to believing it. doesn't make it real.

 

[Hog-train]

and they are entitled to their flawed interpretation. you are also entitled to believing it. doesn't make it real.

You're just choosing to say they're flawed because you don't agree with their position on a political level.

 

[ocfightfan]

I have had like 4-5 parents I know have trans kids which seems like a crazy high amount. One lady let her daughter transition to a man underage and paid for the top surgery, they are rich so no problem.

You see, the daughter was having all kinds of depression and had tried to kill her self. They had to take the door off her bedroom and take turns watching her so she would not try to kill herself. So eventually they let her transition. He has been better and happier ever since.

So, given the circumstances I understand their decision.

The misery she feels is because of the left wing BS they teach in the schools and the nonsense on social media. If they had homeschooled her, kept her away from social media, and taken her to Church then none of that would have been necessary. Trans is a mental delusion, ideology, and social contagion. Carving up your kids and using powerful drugs to derail natural development is literally insane.

She may be surface level "better and happier" for now, because she is getting love bombed by cultist groomers, but soon the attention and special treatment will fade and she will be left with a lifetime of medical misery and regret. I hate to say it but she will almost certainly end up on prescription depression medication and/or hard drugs to cope and probably kill herself anyway.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

You're just choosing to say they're flawed because you don't agree with their position on a political level.

i'm saying it's flawed because i don't agree with their position myself, and neither do the vast majority of medical professionals who have spent their entire lives studying it.

 

[Hog-train]

i'm saying it's flawed because i don't agree with their position myself, and neither do the vast majority of medical professionals who have spent their entire lives studying it.

The majority of the professionals and health authorities in Europe agree with the Cass Report. And the number is increasing in the US that are speaking out. They said they were previously being canceled and fired for speaking out.

That points to the US medical associations being captured by ideology and not acting on evidence based science.

 

[UberHere]

i'm saying it's flawed because i don't agree with their position myself, and neither do the vast majority of medical professionals who have spent their entire lives studying it.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

The majority of the professionals and health authorities in Europe agree with the Cass Report. And the number is increasing in the US that are speaking out. They said they were previously being canceled and fired for speaking out.

this is just not true. there is certainly growing anti-trans sentiment in the UK, and the consequential anti-gender affirming care sentiment, but the UK is not all of europe.

That points to the US medical associations being captured by ideology and not acting on evidence based science.

this exact argument could be used against your stance as well lol there's an unethical standard being set for what people are willing to accept as evidence. you can't "double blind placebo test" hormone treatments, surgeries, and puberty blockers. if someone like dr. cass is only willing to accept those types of studies as evidence, it's pretty easy to write her report off as horseshit.

not to mention, even dr. cass's ultimate conclusion was that "we need more data" which you simply cannot achieve by outright banning the treatments.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Breaking today

Puberty blockers to be banned indefinitely for under-18s across UK

Health secretary says emergency measures banning sale and supply for gender dysphoria will be made indefinite after expert advice

www.theguardian.com

Puberty blockers to be banned indefinitely for under-18s across UK​

Health secretary says emergency measures banning sale and supply for gender dysphoria will be made indefinite after expert advice

Decisions were being taken “based on the evidence and advice of clinicians, not politics or political pressure”, he added.

A clear victory for evidence-based medicine.

i'm saying it's flawed because i don't agree with their position myself, and neither do the vast majority of medical professionals who have spent their entire lives studying it.

Wrong

 

[Hog-train]

this is just not true. there is certainly growing anti-trans sentiment in the UK, and the consequential anti-gender affirming care sentiment, but the UK is not all of europe.

Any anti-trans sentiment is just pushback from the trans activists going full retard.

The decisions of the health authorities of Sweden, Finland, France, the UK, Norway and the other countries is based on evidence, not ideology.

this exact argument could be used against your stance as well lol there's an unethical standard being set for what people are willing to accept as evidence. you can't "double blind placebo test" hormone treatments, surgeries, and puberty blockers. if someone like dr. cass is only willing to accept those types of studies as evidence, it's pretty easy to write her report off as horseshit.

not to mention, even dr. cass's ultimate conclusion was that "we need more data" which you simply cannot achieve by outright banning the treatments.

The "double blind placebo test" claim by people criticizing the Cass Report is simply not true. And Cass already addressed that criticism.

And on the "double-blind" claim - where patients are randomly assigned to a treatment or placebo group, getting either medicine or nothing - she said "obviously" young people could not be blinded as to whether or not they were on puberty blockers or hormones because "it rapidly becomes obvious to them".

"But that of itself is not an issue because there are many other areas where that would apply," she said.

That's not the only critique of the studies supporting hormone treatments for kids. There is a lot more than that - such as tiny sample sizes, not following up for a long enough time or not following up at all, etc.

The fact of the matter is, the Cass Report systematically analyzed studies related to gender-affirming care over 4 years and deemed 98% of them to be too low quality. You just don't like that inconvenient fact.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Any anti-trans sentiment is just pushback from the trans activists going full retard.

The decisions of the health authorities of Sweden, Finland, France, the UK, Norway and the other countries is based on evidence, not ideology.

it's based on selective evidence in accordance with ideology. there is a consensus amongst people who study and practice this medicine for a living, and it's not "these treatments need to stop"

The "double blind placebo test" claim by people criticizing the Cass Report is simply not true. And Cass already addressed that criticism.

And on the "double-blind" claim - where patients are randomly assigned to a treatment or placebo group, getting either medicine or nothing - she said "obviously" young people could not be blinded as to whether or not they were on puberty blockers or hormones because "it rapidly becomes obvious to them".

"But that of itself is not an issue because there are many other areas where that would apply," she said.

sure, but that was what was outlined in the cass review as the gold standard of evidence right before it tells you everything wrong with every other kind of evidence. she obviously knows the ethical problems that are glaring with using RCT's for this kind of treatment, yet allowed it to affect what she deemed to be quality studies.

That's not the only critique of the studies supporting hormone treatments for kids. There is a lot more than that - such as tiny sample sizes, not following up for a long enough time or not following up at all, etc.

in many studies, i can see this as valid criticism. but critiquing methodology and praxis doesn't mean the treatment isn't effective, and cass didn't reach that conclusion either. in fact, her exact words (in the same article you just quoted) were:

We're certainly not saying that no-one is going to benefit from these treatments, and I myself have spoken to young people who definitely do appear to have benefited.

"But what we need to understand is what's happening to the majority of people who've been through these treatments, and we just don't have that data.

so i may not agree with what she deems to be "quality" study, but she appears to be in agreement that more studying needs to be done, which can't happen if we stop the treatment.

The fact of the matter is, the Cass Report systematically analyzed studies related to gender-affirming care over 4 years and deemed 98% of them to be too low quality. You just don't like that inconvenient fact.

hilarious to define a single body's subjective review as a "fact". it's factual that she released that review, but the review itself is not fact.