Mayberry-toned MMA Hall of Fame discussion (is it possible here?)

[Doughbelly]

I'm not listening to anyone under the age of 40, nor should anyone.

You have to take into account the old days of the sport. Not knowing who they were going to fight, unable to gameplan for months. Fighting multiple times in 1 day. Large weight differences. Etc.

Now we have Dana throwing scrubs at champs and calling them a star. If there's not enough time to prepare, the champ might just back out (talking to you JJ). Everyone on that Silva list was billed as a serious threat, but most are scrubs that he had months to prepare for.

I just have more respect for the Sakurabas of the world, who would take all comers. The guy fought 90 minutes against the legend, and in the same night stepped into the ring against Vovchanchyn, a top 3 HW at the time and someone who would put your lights out. And he competed valiantly. Oh yeah and he debunked the Gracie dominance all by himself. Lots of guys could have done it, but he actually managed to get them in the ring.

But noooo he's not on anyone's list. Maybe if Pride manufactured a rivalry between him and Macias, and made 3 more fights, his record would look better.

In general I just hate the weight classes, and the lack of challenges outside of them. The greatest champs are also some of the greatest cutters. They are NEVER the smaller guy, ever. It's just a huge element of fighting that no longer exists outside the HW division anymore.

So for the most part... screw these lists. Screw them in a gentle, loving, Mayberry kind of way. Respect bare knuckle, respect bravery, respect 3 fights in a night, respect not gameplanning for months.

Ageist! I'm not 40 yet!

 

[megamidget]

Seeing as someone threw Saku's name out there, I thinks its fair to list Ice Cold Igor also. He lost to most top guys but, he was undersized, extremely old school and even with all that in mind he lasted 'till 2005. The guy fought 12 times in '96, 9 times in '97, 5 times in '98, 7 times in '99, 8 times in 2000 and 6 times in 2001 before he slowed down to "only" a 2-3 fights per year. Cerrone is currently one of the most active guys in mma and yet, Ice Cold fought up to 3 times as much as him in a single night!
[YT]HSNNEUZygwc[/YT]

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

I guess it makes me That Guy, but I pretty much judge a person's depth and longevity of knowledge by where they place Saku on their GOATs list whenever the topic comes up.

People who came after Saku's prime and just see the numbers don't appreciate what it was as like to watch the man fight.

To put this in perspective, Saku was smaller than GSP, and a chubby one at that. In modern terms, he had a LW/WW frame. Saku could nearly have made WW weigh-ins without cutting by refraining from his steady diet of beer and cigarettes and taking a shit before stepping on the scales. Modern LWs walk around and the weight Saku did when he was fighting LHWs and HWs and not just mooks, but LHW and HW champs, former champs, future champs and contenders. Saku regularly gave up 30-50 pounds come fight night and still found ways to win or in the very least, was able to make a competitive match out against top trim fighters 2-3, sometime four weight classes above him.

And that's not even mentioning that Saku is the guy who singlehandedly destroyed the Gracie mystique of unbeatability. It seems funny to think about now, but in the late 90s and early 2000s, Gracies had a virtually unpiercable aura of invincibility. Maybe, if you were incredibly lucky, you could take a decision or knock one out, but submit one or break one? Couldn't be done.

Saku is Saku, and then there is everyone else.

I'm not listening to anyone under the age of 40, nor should anyone.

You have to take into account the old days of the sport. Not knowing who they were going to fight, unable to gameplan for months. Fighting multiple times in 1 day. Large weight differences. Etc.

Now we have Dana throwing scrubs at champs and calling them a star. If there's not enough time to prepare, the champ might just back out (talking to you JJ). Everyone on that Silva list was billed as a serious threat, but most are scrubs that he had months to prepare for.

I just have more respect for the Sakurabas of the world, who would take all comers. The guy fought 90 minutes against the legend, and in the same night stepped into the ring against Vovchanchyn, a top 3 HW at the time and someone who would put your lights out. And he competed valiantly. Oh yeah and he debunked the Gracie dominance all by himself. Lots of guys could have done it, but he actually managed to get them in the ring.

But noooo he's not on anyone's list. Maybe if Pride manufactured a rivalry between him and Macias, and made 3 more fights, his record would look better.

In general I just hate the weight classes, and the lack of challenges outside of them. The greatest champs are also some of the greatest cutters. They are NEVER the smaller guy, ever. It's just a huge element of fighting that no longer exists outside the HW division anymore.

So for the most part... screw these lists. Screw them in a gentle, loving, Mayberry kind of way. Respect bare knuckle, respect bravery, respect 3 fights in a night, respect not gameplanning for months.

Yes. You. People like you, that's who I'd like to discuss MMA HOF with.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

A lot of you are leaving out Mir at HW and I don't know why. He's an all time great.

Personally I'd put Nick Diaz in at WW too. But I can see the argument against.

Rich Franklin definitely gets in at MW. No doubt about that one.

Ah ha!
And here's where the debate gets interesting.

Frank Mir... two fights ago, it was an easy "No".
These latest two wins elevates Frank Mir to "wait and see." He's still building his case.

Frank Mir, though, gets this fluffed up credit simply because he's been in the limelight so long -- Headlining and Co-Headlining UFC PPVs for a decade-plus.

In actuality, in the cage, in comparison with other fighters... Frank Mir is not all that accomplished. The "Ufc belts" that he won are akin to Nick Diaz' Stikeforce belts -- they did NOT represent the best in the world. Frank Mir has only beaten 5 opponents who were Ranked Top 10. That does not compare well to other, true, all time greats.

Rich and Nick are also very debatable figures.

 

[megamidget]

I'm usually the one to bitch about Mir beating washed up versions of Mirko and Nog but damn. He still managed to finish 2 out of top 3 heavyweights of Pride's era. That's gotta be mean something.